In this case the Owner and end user are one and the same. I actually handle things very similar to the way you have indicated.
Owner is a repeat customer. GC is also a repeat customer. Nasty situation. I will get him to complete the cert and go from there. Greg Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:41 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: owners information certificate Just re-read this and it sure do ramble, hope it makes sense to some of you. Other than Rick I have not heard a lot from the AHJ's lurking out there. This is just my take on the relationship with both the client and the AHJ. Many Ahj's (Most?) rely on our expertise to at least some extent. Many actually flag certain contractors submittals due to past situations or quality issues. I don't ever want to be in that position with any of the AHJ's we work with. I'm not always right, and we don't always install mistake free systems, but the relationship with our AHJ's is that if we're wrong we fix it. (And we attempt to never repeat that mistake again.) Our AHJ's are our co-designers. (layout tech.) When they change the code's they are the design professional. (They replaced engineering with their own reasoning.) Who better to ask than the guy that wrote the standard? (One of the many reason's this forum is such a good resource.) But even when they've changed nothing in the standard, they are still the enforcement, and on going review for all existing systems. We talk, both on and off the record with our AHJ's all the time. We develop a repour, and I feel trust and understanding. They also know that we can't always pick and chose our clients or the projects that we want. So what to do?(Assumes we can't or don't want to walk away.) In our case we would talk to the AhJ (off the record) explain what has happened, and what we think is going to happen, and our concerns. Most would agree that there is no actionable violation, until the pod's are in place. They would probably review the plans with their usual care, and see the owners signed cert which we scanned and placed on the front page of our drawing is complete. They would notify their inspectors to check this property 1/4ly to check for change of use after our final, and everyone is covered. The relationship with the owner is somewhat different depending upon weather this is a one shot deal or a repeat customer. (Neither would change the discussion with the AHJ.) With a "Good" customer, multiable projects good pay ect.talk first, write second, but always be honest. Tell them that the AHJ has increased their enforcement of these facilities and will catch him if he changes use from the initial design. That his own insurance company may void all coverage if he changes use with out notifying them or upgrading the system, and that his tenants insurance won't cover his loss either, and he'll probably come after the owner for compensation, compensation no longer covered by the owners insurance. Show the owner that it's in his best interest to properly protect this building. That he puts himself at risk if he doesn't. That the AHJ will catch him, (it's only a matter of time) and then he may lose significant income and suffer "Loss of Use" while they force him to "Unload the building, Meet the current (Possibly more stringent or costly codes) than what is in place now. His tenant will move elsewhere while that happens and may never come back, or even better, he'll spend the required upgrade money on a tenant that doesn't return, and the new tenant would have worked with the lower density system. Explain to him that your insurance will be void, and not offer him any protection if he changes use from the owner cert. and that the AHJ will support that. That he'll fail his first inspection, which will require notice to the AHJ. That if he chooses not to do inspections, his own insurance will once again have reason to a) deny any claim, and/or b) to increase his and his tenants insurance rates. Show your client that (unlike George's analogy with the car. He sure does love anything with a seat belt analogy) your client would be in the same situation as if he took the 5 mil for his building and went to Vegas. He sits at a casino until its all gone. It's not a question of if he'll lose it, just how long it will take. Play the game long enough and you lose. Owner is a one time thing, or at least one without a history with your firm. Walk? yeah or try all of the above, and when that doesn't work offer to include "Free" quarterly inspections for the 1 year warranty period. When you do the inspection and see pod's. Mark it as a decency and report it to the Owner and AHJ as required. Then provide the owner with a proposal to upgrade their system to meet the occupancy. Owner doesn't accept, it's the AHJ's problem. Owner accepts the proposal, you get more work. If he didn't pay you for the original promptly you can even ask for cash in advance on your proposal. What kind of person we work for is often not evident until we actually do work for them. We'd all love just "Good" customers, but getting there is a learning experience. No matter how binding and Legal the "Contracting" is, it's always a risk. We gamble every day. Minimize the risk or maximize the profit to cover the loss. At the end of the day your still here and those that don't aren't. Thom McMahon Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Church" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:39 AM Subject: RE: owners information certificate > Todd, I think the chances of getting PAIN IN FULL are excellent. > > I threw the car example out just as a parallel. > > Assuming you can find work to keep your guys busy, RUN AWAY is by far the > best advice. Life's too short to do business with the unethical. > > Even if you install it properly, will it be maintained? Will the heat stay > on (ok, you're in FL)? If there is a loss, will the Owner try to lie and > opin it on you by fabricating a story to pin the liability on you? > > RUN AWAY > And once you've done that, you are no longer the agent of the owner, not > having any contractual bind. This frees you up to call the AHJ and explain > what is coming at him. That is the ETHICAL way to handle this, IMHO. > Except I can't have an opinion, just being a CET :) > > glc > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd > Williams > - work > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 12:24 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: owners information certificate > > Greg, > > Run, don't walk away. This guy is an ethical nightmare. If he does > this type of thing, what are your odds of getting pain in full? Or > what else does he have out there that could potentially hurt you? I > would contact your attorney, explain to him the situation and see > what his/her advise would be on protecting yourself, but leave this > for your competition. If you've already signed on, talk to your > attorney about this from that perspective. Maybe you have an escape route. > > Todd > > > > At 12:03 PM 3/20/2007, you wrote: >>Part A: >> >> >> >>What do we (as an industry) do when an owner completes the Owner's >>Information Certificate incorrectly to deliberately mislead an AHJ? >> >> >> >>Part B: >> >> >> >>What do we do when they technically tell the truth as in building a >>warehouse that has no storage above 12' initially but they have every >>intention (because they tell you so) to store PODS 24' high after they get > a >>CO? >> >> >> >>BTW, the reason I have been unsuccessful in convincing the owner of the >>proper level of protection is because there have 2 of these buildings >>built >>within 200 miles in the last few months and both of them had minimal >>systems. The installing contractor on one of the jobs told me that they > were >>told the building was a spec warehouse and to protect it as an empty >>building and after they were done the owner would lease it to the PODS >>franchisee. His comment was "I don't know if that protects me or not" >> >> >> >>Legally? >> >> >> >>Morally I feel bound to walk away from this project but that just means > that >>they will find someone else to do the job incorrectly and although there >>is >>no liability involved, there is still the knowledge that the building >>(Ord. >>Group II) will be grossly under protected. >> >> >> >>I know the argument that we are not police of the industry nor can we 2nd >>guess what the potential future occupancy of a building is or may be one >>day, but this is different and one of the 2 scenarios listed above is >>going >>to happen on this project. >> >> >> >>Thanks for your input, >> >>Greg >> >> >> >>Living Water Fire Protection, LLC >> >>1160 McKenzie Road >> >>Cantonment, FL 32533 >> >>850-937-1850 >> >>Fax: 850-937-1852 >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>[email protected] >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, Connecticut > 860-535-2080 > www.fpdc.com > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
