Ray, Roland's accurate comment aside, and I'm even talking about server farms, the objective of pre-action is first to provide a safety margin against an accidental discharge that might interfere with vital mission functions or destroy expensive equipment, and provide proper fire protection when discharge is wanted. If in your server room some wanker knocks open a head on a SIPA nothing happens except the piping integrity becomes compromised. Presumably in any critical area you will have supervision for piping integrity (very low air pressure) and so will know that the pipe has been compromised. Also, since the mission is so critical or the equipment so expensive someone will be called to repair the problem. The odds of having a detector go off at the same time the guy changing light bulbs knocks of a head is probably is too small to figure without using the high end computers you're protecting. Essentially SIPA is a pre-action wet pipe system that you would use anywhere you would normally use a plain wet pipe system but can't afford accidental discharge. Discharge, not flooding, being the key word here. DIPA on the other hand is a pre-action dry pipe where conditions are the same but flooding is also an expensive problem, say like the 100K freezer warehouse (-20F) with $6m worth of frozen salmon. Two problems the DIPA then protects against are accidental discharge ruining the product and accidental tripping flooding the piping which then freezes so that you either have to thaw the warehouse (not going to happen) or disassembling the piping, taking it outside to thaw and then replacing it (unhappy, cold fitters). So, you're using DIPA for the server because it gives you a greater degree of protection (no discharge unless a detector goes and a head fuses which is unlikely to occur simultaneously) whereas a SIPA floods on detection but also doesn't discharge without an open head (same degree of unlikelihood, maybe more unlikely since you don't have a forklift driver smoking a cigarette in a server room/farm). So the customer (not a fire protection guy) gets a better "feeling" but no added value. In fact he gets a more costly, more maintenance intensive (hence less reliable) system with no real advantage (that is unless putting water in the sealed pipes is a problem in and of itself). In fact this myth about greater degree of protection with DIPA over SIPA (if DIPA is so much better in all applications why even manufacture SIPA?) bugs me more than Hollywood sprinklers. The first movie I know of with deluge in a normal building situation, old style sanitorium in this particular case, is in the Marx Brothers' "A Day at the Races." Among the latest was killing zombies with holy water discharged through a deluge system in an auditorium. Sprinklers make good entertainment and Hollywood is in the entertainment business, not the education or fire protection business. They won't change. Don't flog the dead horse. What bugs me is mythologies we perpetuate amongst ourselves and pass on to our customers. Just look at a Corps spec sometime. I'll shut up now.
On 4/6/07, Ray Schmid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
With a SIPA system, I am filling the piping if a detector activates. I'm not sure I agree that this affords the same degree of protection as a DIPA system, which would also require a sprinkler activation before water enters the piping. I agree that a DIPA system for a closet is overkill. But, if this is what the customer considers the value of his peace on mind.... Most of our data center clients would have a fit if I told them we would flood the system piping whenever a smoke detector (or 2) activated. The cost for a DIPA system, or multiple systems, is peanuts on a large data center project. Ray Schmid -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 5:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Server Closet Presuming you were going to use a pre-action valve why would anyone use a DIPA in anything other than a freezer warehouse? Wouldn't a SIPA give you the same degree of protection anywhere that freezing the water in the pipes due to accidental tripping wasn't a concern? And for far less cost and complexity. Just a question since this pre-action thing popped up again and no one seems to even consider less than DIPA in any application. On 4/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > George, > Like if you had put those pipe labels with the directional arrows on > them you wouldn't like need to worry about gravity, the water will like > know where to go. > > Geez, rookie. > > LOL > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Group > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.lg.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George > Church > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 4:48 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Server Closet > > We try to go with high-temp concealed heads, too- K.I.S.S. instead of > DIPA, or a basketball of halon/purpleK with a spkr stuck in it > (CeaseFire). > > Recently bid a doozie- 15,000 sf emergency services bldg for the county. > 2 DIPA, one rm 9 hds, 1 was 12. FM200 in another, wet throughout the > rest. > Now the good part- dry uprights were shown to protect the attic- they'd > be 20' long, and pitched to be perpendicular to the 4/12 roof!!! > Realizing their mistake, they issued an addendum to provide a dry-pipe > system in the attic, except DIPA above the 3 rooms listed above. 4 > systems in the attic! > > Icing on the cake- tank buried outside, atmospheric vent at grade, water > to ignore gravity and jump up into the VI pump. Naturally we had to put > a transfer switch on it, since power (and the building) would be lost > before any water came out. > > $22/sf and it wouldn't work (except the FM 200). Sealed by a PE. > > Why would you stack kindling atop a bulletproof concept? > > glc > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris > Cahill > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 4:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Server Closet > > And these same nit wits don't care about sinks and toilets, severe > weather, roof leaks, electrical issues, floods and all the other > possible causes of damage. When I ask if they considered all the other > possible sources of damage or interruption with fire or sprinklers being > among the least probable they usually put it in the new context and drop > the issue. Or at least stop pushing to spend the owner's money (vs. > theirs) and compromise on a concealer and high temp. > > Bigger rooms with high value critical infrastructure for a mutli-million > business then maybe DIPA. But these are usually multiple redundant > remote systems and thus any one site is not important and they accept > the risk all > 3 (or more) won't have problems at the same time. > > I'm not sure what John Drucker means about IFC 904.2. But be careful > about substituting alternate agents for sprinklers. 904.2 ('00 ed.) > last sentence may mean if the sprinklers are not in the room (closet) it > is an unsprinklered building. The only exceptions are in 903.3.1.1.1 > and I don't see server rooms covered. At least the way I read it > alternate agents are > not sprinklers. > > Chris Cahill, P.E. > Fire Protection Engineer > Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > 763-658-4483 > 763-658-4921 fax > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Mail: P.O. Box 69 > Waverly, MN 55390 > > Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > Waverly, MN 55390 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 2:22 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Server Closet > > The dry sidewall might appease them if all they were worried about was > an intermittent drip. What I hear more often is the fear of someone > busting the head and millions of gallons of water dumping into the > closet resulting in numerous IT personnel drownings and electronic > equipment getting wet and ruined. > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Group > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.lg.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom > Duross > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 3:15 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Server Closet > > Thanks. > One of my thoughts to offer them was a dry type sidewall. > I can get it set about 10" below the steel deck and still hide the pipe > above the corridor drop ceiling. > Maybe in a 360 degree rating? It would keep the water (wata) out of the > room. > > Tom > > Dual Interlock Pre-Action? > > For one head in a closet? YIPERS! > > > DIPA?? > In my best Sherman: "Gee Mr. Peabody, what's that?" > > Tom > > Sounds like they're concerned with water damage and not mission > continuity. I would recommend a DIPA system. Either way, it seems like > a lot of effort for one sprinkler. > > Inergen would likely require pressure relief venting. > > Ray Schmid > > I was wondering if I could get recommendations of advice to give a > client. > Their IT guy is bugging them about a head we put in a server closet. > It's just a 6' w x 3' deep closet with their rack and a little ductless > ac unit. > No raised floor, liebert or big ups equipment and certainly not sealed. > I offered high temp head but they're scared about water (wata). > Should I suggest total flooding inergen? Low temp rate of rise heat > detector? > I have to have an exhaust system installed with inergen, right? > I think they'd have to enclose the closet to keep in the gas. > > Thanks, > > Tom Duross > Go Red Sox > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
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