Tony, That mostly makes sense. The only thing I don't follow is the additional outside hose stream allowance if you go the standpipe route. If the FD is going to run hand lines directly off an engine, then why is the owner paying for a horizontal standpipe system? To me, it's use the standpipe OR run the hand lines off an engine - provide the 1250 and the FD can use the standpipe, run lines directly off an engine, or some combination. You provide the 750, 1000, or 1250, whatever it ends up to be and that is the hose allowance. So it seems as though you have a 1250 gpm standpipe demand and with a 30 minute water supply duration for a total supply requirement of 37,500 gallons.
With regard to the sprinkler route, looking at FM guidance, basic metalworking occupancy without any occupancy exceptions would require 0.15/2500 for a wet system, 250 gpm hose stream, and 60 minute duration. Interesting, basic calculation there for a total water supply requirement is 37,500 gallons also. Basic metalworking occupancy classification for FM includes lubricating and cutting oils normal to the occupancy and even some hydraulic oil depending on # of units, oil capacities, separation, etc. At least per FM, if you protect for the larger quantities of hyraulic fluids, for a wet system with high temp sprinklers, you're at 0.2/3000, 500 gpm hose stream for 60 minutes which ends up at 66,000 gallons. I didn't check on any bldg height influence, there may be some impact there. >From a water supply standpoint, it seems as though the standpipe demand would be on the low end at 37,500. Sprinklers seem as though they would be from 37,500 on up depending on where you end up for design criteria. I think you mentioned that you are trying to encourage the owner to sprinkler the bldg to avoid the standpipe and larger water storage requirement. At least my quick look at it, it seems as though the sprinkler option is going to be the higher water storage requirement. To keep the F3 for the bulk of the bldg, storage of lubricating oil, etc. could be in a detached bldg, haz storage unit, exterior cut-off, maybe interior cut-off room with the appropriate separation maybe?? Same goes for any smaller quantities of combustible/flammable liquids. For the Class III system, who is going to use the 1 1/2" hose stations? Is there at least an incipient brigade, because I wouldn't think the FD would use them typically. Are you planning on a loop of yard hydrants? It looks as though you have more to consider than just the sprinkler vs. standpipe water storage requirement. As you indicate, it might not end up an F3, 60' building height, maybe some combustible/flammable liquids, etc. Hope this helped some. Richard Malek [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 3:08 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Water supply NFPA 14 Standpipe & Hose System The building code I have to use, has three group F divisions for industrial occupancies. F1 is "high hazard", F2 is "medium hazard" and F3 is "low hazard". The building is to be used for fabricating steel pressure vessels. No painting or sand blasting, as they have a separate building for that. I agree with Steve. Though the building construction is steel and concrete, and storage would be steel pressure vessels, there could be processes involving combustible and flammable liquids. The consultants retained by the owner seems to think the applicable occupancy is F3. It has not been approved yet, but I think they are in for a rude shock. If (a big IF) it is classified as group F3, the building code permits a one storey building of non-combustible construction to be unlimited floor area and not required to be sprinklered. The building has to be "used solely for low fire load occupancies such as (a) power generating plants or (b) plants for the manufacture or storage of non-combustible materials." Can someone give me an example of the IBC requirements for "exits" for sprinklered vs. non-sprinklered buildings? The standpipe requirement is from the local building code, which limits the building area unless a standpipe system or sprinkler system is provided. Also, it is required, for the 60 foot building height. For now, they have asked me to tell them how much water storage will be required for a standpipe system. We are still on the 1996 edition of NFPA 14 (adoption of the newer codes are pending and will be pretty soon, but not yet). So the approach I thought of using was considering each hose connection as a standpipe and calculating 250 gpm per hose connection up to a maximum of 1250 gpm for 30 minutes. This volume of water will be provided to the hose connections through the fire department connection, by the fire department. But would I need to make an additional allowance for fire department outside hoses. One fire truck could be pumping into the fire department connection while another is drawing from the same water supply for additional hose lines? Actually 300,000 sq.ft. is only phase 1, phase 2 is an addition of another 300,000 sq.ft. With a 60 foot building height it would be a monster. I'm trying to get them to go with a sprinkler system. But would one be effective with that height? Any alternative suggestions? Tony -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Malek Sent: April 23, 2007 6:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Water supply NFPA 14 Standpipe & Hose System Tony, I assume you have a unlimited area F-2 (non-spinklered, one story with the required public way/yard widths), that's how you're getting the 300K sq. ft. unsprinklered bldg (507.2 in 2006 IBC)? If that's the case, where are you getting the "where required" standpipe requirement from the building code? I don't see it, is that a local requirement? Richard Malek [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:16 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Water supply NFPA 14 Standpipe & Hose System A standpipe system is required due to size, for an unsprinklered building. It is a building code requirement. I'm trying to encourage the owner to sprinkler it to avoid a standpipe system and a larger water storage requirement. So I need to calculate the water storage for sprinklers and standpipe, for comparison. The class III is also from the building code, which requires both 2 1/2" hose connections (due to floor area) and 1 1/2" hose stations. Tony -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: April 23, 2007 12:58 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Water supply NFPA 14 Standpipe & Hose System Why is there a Class III standpipe required in the first place? Steve Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:48 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Water supply NFPA 14 Standpipe & Hose System I'm designing a class 3 standpipe system for a single storey 300,000 sq.ft. metal fabrication plant. No city water, so needs a water storage pond. I'm trying to figure out the required storage volume. NFPA requires 500 gpm from the most remote standpipe and 500 gpm from each additional stand pipe (for floor area exceeding 80,000 sq.ft.) with total not exceeding 1250 gpm, for a duration of 30 minutes. My opinion is that NFPA 14 mostly covers multi-storey buildings. When it's single storey, should I take each hose connection as a standpipe and flow 250 gpm per connection, up to maximum 1250 gpm? It is probably the safest, as it would be the most conservative. Has anyone come across this situation? The other question is regarding hose allowance for fire department. (The building code water supply requirement does not apply in my area, if the building has either a sprinkler or standpipe system.) NFPA 14 requires a standpipe system to be designed for the system demand and fire department connections. It says to consult the AHJ for water supply from fire department pumper. Would it be system demand OR demand for fire department pumper (the larger value and not both simultaneously)? Or should a hose allowance be used same as for a sprinkler system? If so, for what duration? Another question (while I'm at it), NFPA 14 requires lateral piping to 2 1/2" hose connections to be protected if the building is not sprinklered. Up to now I've never seen piping in a single storey building in fire rated enclosures. Is it required? 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