I stand corrected and should have said CONTAIN instead of suppress. But in any case, the situation illustrated here wouldn't even contain a fire. Water running in streams off the panels (if the sprinkler even operated) isn't going to accomplish much, maybe it would drown the fire eventually if you let it flow long enough. (ah there you go, now that would be suppression by drowning) ;)
The whole concept of when does an obstruction become an obstruction can not always be defined by the black and white rules written down. There's no magic in the 48" number. To say that at 48" it's not an obstruction but at 48.5" it is, only defines the item as an obstruction per the code but not always in actual application. When there are obstructions such as these they can almost create a ceiling level below the roof deck sprinklers. This is one area where the FP designer can help the architect by letting them know these kind of items can create a problem. Maybe going to a smaller panel and adjusting the spacing between differently can eliminate any question whatsoever about the need of sub-level sprinklers and the effectiveness and unhindered activation of the roof deck sprinklers. But in typical fashion if we meet the written definition of the Code, we're covered. No extra costs to the owner. We've met the requirements based on the minimum. I guess this is my soapbox issue. Owners want cheap, cheap, cheap when it comes to fire protection systems, save every dollar they can there, "just give me the bare minimum", but I don't ever remember hearing someone say to buy the cheapest carpet they can find. Sounds like the priorities are a bit askew. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Knight Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:47 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room Craig, I agreed with you on the quantity and closeness of the panels, I was merely pointing out the fact that an object is not an obstruction just because it is 48" wide. It's not an obstruction until it exceeds the 48" threshold. As far as are sprinklers required; it will depend on the actual layout of the panels. It may be that there are areas were it would be advisable to place pendants in the panels, while there may be other areas where this can be avoided. This is why I'm not sold either way. The layout will dictate where sprinklers will be required. As Garth mentioned, I think it was Garth, the fire sprinklers are designed to contain not suppress the fire. While we all want to see every fire suppressed, this is not the intent. It is an excellent bonus though that most fires are suppressed by sprinklers, and I agree that we need to be diligent in our designs so as not to create systems that will be destined to fail. Bob K -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room It will discharge down upon the panels and then just run down to the floor in streams. Doubt there will be much swirling below the panels. If the discharge pattern of a sprinkler is crucial to its effective nature at suppressing fire, then it's unlikely that they will have much more effect than someone laying a garden hose on top of the panels and letting it run. Hopefully the panels are designed and installed in such a way that they won't retain or collect water, then fall to the floor under the weight. This is one of those issues where we need to feel confident that due diligence has been practiced when "we just meet the code". Don't forget, that's the mantra the owner of Sofa World used. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Knight Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:20 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room Splitting hairs may be true, but none the less 48" and less qualifies per code. As long as the panels are consistent in size, they are acceptable per code. So, the sprinklers don't have to be precise, they just need to discharge. One of the reasons that obstructions of this size are allowed per code is because water is distributed and acts in a laminar fashion. Simply meaning that water can and will swirl around in the air allowing it to cover areas that are otherwise obstructed from direct discharge. Bob -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:03 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room This is splitting hairs but at 48" they are not an obstruction based on NFPA 13, but if they were 48-1/8" they are now an obstruction. Those are some excessively precise sprinklers. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Knight Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:57 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room Chuck, I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with the positions being taken on this because I haven't made up my mind. I'm a little uncomfortable with the quantity of panels as someone Craig mentioned. However, if the panels measure exactly 48" they still can be considered a non obstruction based on width alone. They become an obstruction only when they exceed 48". Bob Knight -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rapid Fire - Bismarck Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room Sorry, I know that Life Safety is everybody's primary concern - and that's the business we're in. (The comment about "cost" and "feel good" was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.) Information on the panels just arrived - yep non-covered actual dimensions = 3'-10¾ square (now - add some sort of fabric - and we're at 4'-0"). I'm still awaiting a return from the A.H.J. **I apologize for the doubling of the messages - I don't know why they're coming across 2x** Chuck -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terri Leyton Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room In this heat, even the dirty water "feels good". :-) Terri Simmons Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING Ph: 858-751-2930 Fax: 858-751-2933 Cell: 619-871-8450 PLEASE NOTE: New address effective 8-27-07! 8849-B Complex Drive, San Diego, CA 92123 Phone and fax remain the same -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rapid Fire - Bismarck Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room But at what expense? Surely you won't see an architect / owner openly offer money to "feel good". -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room Granted the clouds may not allow a sprinkler to "effectively extinguish a fire below such an assembly" but when did extinguishment become a requirement and how will a sprinkler installed in a 4x4 panel prevent diversion of combustion gasses? We call them feel good sprinklers, they won't go off because there is no heat collection but they make the AHJ's and engineers happy. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:07 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room Even though the clouds are 3'-11 and technically under the 4'-0 rule (8.6.5.3.3) with only 1'-0 up to 4'-0 between the panels what will the effective spray pattern be from heads installed at the underside of the roof deck? If you had 4 panels with only 12" between the panels you've essentially got a 16x16 ft obstruction and would you really expect sprinklers to effectively extinguish a fire below such an assembly? Also while we're discussing obstruction to water spray, what about diversion of combustion gasses to sprinklers not near the actual fire source? Is this considered? I don't know if the 3'-11 measurement is off the actual cloud/ a shop drawing or off of an architectural drawing. If you're scaling something off a cad drawing I wouldn't try to call it that close, chances are it'll be 48"+. What did Dirty Harry say, "do ya feel lucky?" .................. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rapid Fire - Bismarck Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:18 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room I appreciate all's input on the matter. (Taking 8.6.5.2.1.4 into consideration) Though I'm 'nickel and dime'ing the situation - measurement of the panels are 3'-11" square. Whew! Under 4'!! Seriously though - in a room measuring 48'-9" square, there's 56 of these panels! ½" have a convex contour... the others - concave. I'll be making a call to the respective A.H.J. and get his take on it. Thanks again! No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: 8/14/2007 5:19 PM _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. 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Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: 8/14/2007 5:19 PM _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. 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