Good catch. I was thinking of Potassium (and sodium). I once observed a fire chief at a jet engine manufacturer throw a 5 pound chunk of sodium into and industrial pond! Terrific fireworks show! C. Burton Ford Designer- NICET Certified: Fire Alarm, Special Hazards, Sprinkler Design &Sprinkler Inspections NFPA CFPS Cintas Fire Protection-D-47 Warminster, PA 18974 Phone 267-487-1000 Fax 267-487-1010
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Garth W. Warren Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Ordinary chemical plants? I know sodium must be kept in kerosene because it burns in air and/or water (emptied an entire high school auditorium learning that lesson). Perhaps that is the element some are thinking of? Garth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Minkel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:22 AM Subject: RE: Ordinary chemical plants? > Regardless, keep it in kerosene like the man said. > > > Bill Minkel, Designer > Western States Fire Protection, Dallas > NFPA Member #2578666 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rosemary > Beers > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:05 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Ordinary chemical plants? > > What? > > Phosphorus is commonly misspelled "phosphorous". It is an essential > component of living systems and is found in nervous tissue, bones and cell > protoplasm. Phosphorus exists in several allotropic forms including white > (or yellow), red, and black (or violet). White phosphorus has two > modifications. Ordinary phosphorus is a waxy white solid. When pure, it is > colourless and transparent. It is insoluble in water, but soluble in carbon > disulphide. It catches fire spontaneously in air, burning to P4O10, often > misnamed as phosphorus pentoxide. When exposed to sunlight, or when heated > in its own vapour to 250?C, it is converted to the red variety. This form > does not ignite spontaneously and it is a little less dangerous than white > phosphorus. The red modification is fairly stable and sublimes with a vapour > pressure of 1 atmosphere at 417?C. > > Check this link out. > > http://periodic.lanl.gov/elements/15.html See handling : White phosporous > should be kept under water..... > > > Point is be sure you know what you are protecting. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bill Minkel > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 3:15 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Ordinary chemical plants? > > > You transport Phosphorus in water you gonna get a heck of a big big > surprise. > > > Bill Minkel, Designer > Western States Fire Protection, Dallas > NFPA Member #2578666 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rosemary > Beers > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:57 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Ordinary chemical plants? > > My son just did his chemistry report on Phosphorus - his mobile had a tube > of toothpaste on it. Some phosphorus can not even be transported other than > in water. Out of water well - you do not want to be anywhere near. Yet it > is some toothpastes. > > Point well taken. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 1:38 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Ordinary chemical plants? > > > Toothpaste, uh, you'd die if you knew some of the stuff that goes into > making some of our "non-hazardous" household products. > > Pharmaceuticals can use some highly toxic and flammable materials in the > process if not in the actual commodity. Some of the chemicals used are used > to cause certain reactions and are then discarded and not actually part of > the end product but they are in the process. That's why you've got to know > the process not just the end product. > > Some pharmaceuticals and food products have used acetone, hot oils, heat > transfer fluids (class III's) above their flash points, ethylene oxide, and > the list goes on. > > Again it's hard to make any assumptions when it comes to these kinds of > facilities. > > So while a chemical plant could be OH2, they are kind of like unicorns. > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Group > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.ch2m.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:11 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Ordinary chemical plants? > > There could be chemical plants that are OH2. Say a plant manufacturing > medical drugs. That would also be a chemical plant. If the processed > material and products are non-hazardous, it could be OH2. Say a plant that > manufactures toothpaste. I have no clue regarding materials involved. But if > they are non-hazardous, could qualify for OH2. NFPA 45 for chemical > laboratories classify labs OH1 and OH2 depending on the lab classification. > The key is what are the material involved? > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Williams > - FPDC > Sent: March 6, 2008 11:15 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Ordinary chemical plants? > > I'm glad to see others seem to be thinking along the same lines. This is the > second design-build chemical facility project this year with no engineering > or insurance company input and no company policies on fire protection other > than 'code says we need sprinklers'. > > Let me pose this: if there is no such thing as an 'ordinary chemical plant' > and they all require specific engineering analysis per NFPA 30, is NFPA > doing a disservice by including this in 13? Anybody can read that statement > and decide that a facility is an ordinary chemical plant and protect it as > OH2 when it should be analyzed and could be a lot higher. Don't mean to dis > the sprinkler bible, but this type of statement could have some unintended > consequences. > > > At 12:07 PM 3/6/2008, you wrote: > >I have never done a chemical processing facility that fell under NFPA > >13 and never an OH occupancy. Usually they fall under NFPA 30 or a more > > >stringent and specific FM criteria. Each plant requires a detailed > >hazards analysis of the process, equipment types and purpose, MSDS info > > >as well as building construction among other issues to determine the > >proper protection approach. > > > >The other issue is that there are new technologies being born every > day. > >Each new product being used or produced doesn't always have a page of > >it's own in the code. So it takes some homework and detailed analysis > >when it comes to determining fire protection criteria for these kinds > >of facilities. > > > >"Ya gotta love it!" > > > > > >Craig L. Prahl, CET > >Fire Protection Group > >Mechanical Department > >CH2MHILL > >Lockwood Greene > >1500 International Drive > >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - > >864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd > >Williams - FPDC > >Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 11:26 AM > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: Ordinary chemical plants? > > > >In NFPA 13, under the section describing OH2 occupancies, they mention > >"Chemical plants - ordinary". What is an ordinary chemical plant? > > > >Todd G. Williams, PE > >Fire Protection Design/Consulting > >Stonington, Connecticut > >www.fpdc.com > >860.535.2080 > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, Connecticut > www.fpdc.com > 860.535.2080 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be confidential and privileged. 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