In my opinion, it is OK to required an FM approved device as these
approvals are published and many devices and items are noted as being FM
approved. However, if we want to require systems or special issues that
are in the FM guidelines, it would be best to simply provide the specific
language in the specifications instead of indicating that it must meet FM
requirements. To simply reference any and all published guides and
standards amounts to lazy engineering.
Thank You
Rahe Loftin, P.E.
Region 7 - GSA
Office - 817-978-7299
Fax - 817-978-8644
Cell - 817-371-3102
"Matthew J.
Willis" To
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] [email protected]
fp.com> cc
Sent by:
sprinklerforum-bo Subject
[EMAIL PROTECTED] RE: engineering decisions
er.org
04/24/2008 03:12
PM
Please respond to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
resprinkler.org
I will agree with that, however, in order to be FM approved, some items
must
be installed in accordance with FM data sheets. Or at the least tighter
spacing, or any other small item that normally appears on the Manf's data
sheet. This sometimes could lead to different pricing.. Etc.
R/
Matt
Matthew J. Willis
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC.
1160 McKenzie Rd.
PO Box 877
Cantonment, FL. 32533
850-937-1850 Voice
850-937-1852 Facsimile
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >-----Original Message-----
----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
----- >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 2:53 PM
----- >To: [email protected]
----- >Subject: RE: engineering decisions
----- >
----- >That's because most don't know what that means. So to
----- >be on the safe side "FM listed" or "FM approved" is
----- >tossed in for good measure.
----- >
----- >Now note that the site or owner doesn't have to be FM
----- >insured for them to request that the fire protection
----- >products be FM approved. We have plenty of self-insured
----- >clients who insist that all fire protection items be FM
----- >approved.
----- >
----- >It's like how many times have I been asked or told that
----- >it's in the code that sprinkler piping needs to be painted red?
----- >
----- >
----- >Craig L. Prahl, CET
----- >Fire Protection Group
----- >Mechanical Department
----- >CH2MHILL
----- >Lockwood Greene
----- >1500 International Drive
----- >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
----- >Direct - 864.599.4102
----- >Fax - 864.599.8439
----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >http://www.ch2m.com
----- >
----- >-----Original Message-----
----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
----- >Behalf Of Ed Kramer
----- >Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:46 PM
----- >To: [email protected]
----- >Subject: RE: engineering decisions
----- >
----- >I'll second that one. The majority of specs I see that
----- >call for FM approval are not FM insured.
----- >
----- >Ed Kramer
----- >Littleton, CO
----- >
----- >> -----Original Message-----
----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >[mailto:sprinklerforum-
----- >
----- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Brown (TECH- GVL)
----- >> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:03 PM
----- >> To: [email protected]
----- >> Subject: RE: engineering decisions
----- >>
----- >> Joe
----- >> I realize that but I have seen hundreds of
----- >specifications where the
----- >> engineer specs it that way requiring both UL and FM Approval.
----- >>
----- >> Michael L. Brown
----- >> Manager of Technical Services
----- >> The Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Company, Inc.'
----- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >> www.reliablesprinkler.com
----- >> (864) 843-5228
----- >>
----- >>
----- >> -----Original Message-----
----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >[mailto:sprinklerforum-
----- >
----- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Hankins
----- >> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:33 PM
----- >> To: [email protected]
----- >> Subject: Re: engineering decisions
----- >>
----- >> Just remember, it's not possible to meet all FM
----- >requirements without
----- >> FM being involved. It can't be done with just a copy of FM Data
----- >Sheets.
----- >>
----- >> Joe
----- >>
----- >>
----- >> Mike Brown (TECH- GVL) wrote:
----- >> > Roland
----- >> > This will get you going---As usual the engineer does
----- >not want to do
----- >> anything but get paid.
----- >> >
----- >> > Just write in the spec:
----- >> >
----- >> > ["Sprinkler System as per NFPA 13 and all materials
----- >and design shall
----- >> meet UL and FM Approvals. Contractor shall meet all
----- >state and local
----- >> codes. Contractor shall determine the water supply
----- >and all drawings
----- >> are schematic and the co-ordination and/or anything
----- >else required is
----- >> to be the responsibility of the contractor."]
----- >> >
----- >> > Have a good day!
----- >> >
----- >> > Michael L. Brown
----- >> > Manager of Technical Services
----- >> > The Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Company, Inc.'
----- >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >> > www.reliablesprinkler.com
----- >> > (864) 843-5228
----- >> >
----- >> > -----Original Message-----
----- >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >> > [mailto:sprinklerforum-
----- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins
----- >> > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:59 AM
----- >> > To: [email protected]
----- >> > Subject: Re: engineering decisions
----- >> >
----- >> > Mike: You need to update (that is reduce) your list.
----- > First expand
----- >> > item 2 to identify the engineer needs to determine
----- >IF The water
----- >> > supply is adequate. I've never understood how an AE
----- >team can
----- >> > provide room for a pump and it's associated
----- >infrastructure if they
----- >> > don't know one is needed until a subcontractor tells
----- >them. Now
----- >> > break out the chain saw. The Third item is
----- >definitely to be thrown
----- >> > out. How can the EOR identify where the remote area
----- >is unless they
----- >> > are drawing lines and circles? Keep cutting and
----- >throw out item 4.
----- >> > The AHJ blesses the plans and do you really want a
----- >third party
----- >> > slowing you down for coordination? Although the
----- >engineering job
----- >> > assurance plan has this one listed, it is a
----- >contractual thing can
----- >> > implement IF the owner wants it but not a valid
----- >requirement. The
----- >> > exception to this statement are when BUILDINGS are
----- >designed on a
----- >> > performance basis that requires specific sprinkler
----- >criteria (that
----- >can exceed 13).
----- >> >
----- >> > Roland
----- >> >
----- >> > On Apr 24, 2008, at 6:15 AM, Mike Brown (TECH- GVL) wrote:
----- >> >
----- >> >
----- >> >> Actually, in several counties around Atlanta, the
----- >test was also
----- >> >> required for garden style apartments up to four
----- >stories. You would
----- >
----- >> >> be surprised that, at least in the beginning, a
----- >number of projects
----- >> >> that had full blown hydraulic calculations failed
----- >when the bucket
----- >> >> test showed them to be incorrect. Many times the
----- >main culprit was
----- >> >> a water test supplied by the water company that was
----- >faulty or not
----- >> >> up to date. Which brings me to my point that I
----- >have made over the
----- >> >> years, the "design" of sprinkler systems really
----- >involves four major
----- >
----- >> >> decisions by the design engineer and the rest is
----- >mostly a layout of
----- >
----- >> >> a system within the rules of the codes.
----- >> >>
----- >> >> First Engineering Decision: What is the hazard and what
----- >> >> densities are required. The project must be
----- >classified as per the
----- >> >> fire risk. What are you protecting and how much
----- >water will it
----- >> >> require to achieve the fire protection objective.
----- >> >>
----- >> >> Second Engineering Decision: What is the water
----- >supply and has
----- >> >> there been a detailed analysis and testing of the
----- >water supply?
----- >> >> Generally, engineers and others rely on water tests
----- >provide by
----- >> >> others and sometimes incorrect and out of date.
----- >Often very little
----- >> >> time is devoted by the engineer to insure that an
----- >adequate water
----- >> >> supply at the needed pressure is available. This
----- >does not mean
----- >> >> just throwing in a large fire pump just to be safe.
----- >> >>
----- >> >> Third Engineering Decision: Where is the remote
----- >area? It is easy
----- >> >> to just let the designer decide but the selection
----- >of the remote
----- >> >> area can change the hydraulics dramatically.
----- >> >>
----- >> >> Fourth Engineering Decision: Coordination and
----- >review of the plans.
----- >> >> The shop drawings and calculations may be checked and the
----- >> >> coordination with the other trades on the project.
----- >Often, the
----- >> >> engineer just passes these functions to a trainee
----- >or someone else
----- >> >> within the engineering firm. In other cases the
----- >issue is just
----- >> ignored.
----- >> >>
----- >> >> Too often these decisions are not given the time
----- >and effort that
----- >> >> they deserve.
----- >> >>
----- >> >>
----- >> >> Michael L. Brown
----- >> >> Manager of Technical Services
----- >> >> The Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Company, Inc.'
----- >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >> >> www.reliablesprinkler.com
----- >> >> (864) 843-5228
----- >> >>
----- >> >>
----- >> > _______________________________________________
----- >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list
----- >> > [email protected]
----- >> >
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----- >> >
----- >>
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