Greg, it sounds like you're defining the scope of your work like an
Engineer
of Record would do.
The TC list is on the nfpa codes and stds website, and both AFSA and
NFSA
will provide "informal interpretations for members- we use this
frequently
to provide documentation to support our position when the AHJ interp
differs
from what we read.
I had a fire official who didn't believe a pump could supply more
than one
building. Now any big industrial complex with a pump and tank- or more-
usually feeds more than one building, but he wanted some proof. I
requested
a letter (actually a REPLY) from a couple committee members of both
13 and
20, the applicable standards, and he accepted them as sufficient
evidence
what we proposed met the intent of the committee. So there's another
reason
to go to AFSA's convention, it s more likely you'll get a letter back
from a
TC member if you've bought em a refreshment or at least bothered to
show up
at convention and met em. Otherwise you're liable to be classified as
one
who asks questions he could look up, and lazy isn't a reason for
bothering
the TC members.
Those pump letters spared my customer something like a dozen pumps, some
13Ds, some 20's. Any question that membership in our associations and
attendance at convention allows you the tools to properly serve your
customers? I saw a competitor's proposal on Friday that stated their
insurance company does not allow them to do anything that isn't in
the code.
By inference, I'm thinking performance-based design and anything
under 1.4
Equivalency isn't touched with a 10-foot pole. I like that because
there
are times when alternative means and methods make sense and a strict
adherence to the applicable standard doesn't, not to mention a couple
million dollars in Quell jobs we've done. Be sure to provide written
substantiation to the AHJ supporting your Equivalency, produced by
someone
competent to write the documentation, or you're just outside the code.
glc
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 9:12 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 2010 handling and storage of combustibles
Thanks for the debate but is there anyone on the committee that
can help?
What about the most common overhang we see in these situations: hangs
over
the truck to keep things dry while entering the building, there is no
"dock"
under the Overhang.
When we try to protect it and also get paid for doing so, what do I
hang my
liability hat on with the legalists out there? "It doesn't say
handled, and
sitting out there for a few hours is not stored" Can't you hear it now?
On 8/30/2010 8:07 AM, [email protected] wrote:
It's just the nature of the beast. There are a lot of things not
clarified or defined in the Codes.
My biggest challenge right now being the occupancy classification of a
machine shop, architects have one idea, engineers and operators another.
Only those who put these undefined categories in the Codes know what
is what
for sure.
Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled topic.....................
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[email protected]
http://www.ch2m.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd
Williams
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 2010 handling and storage of combustibles
Then why doesn't NFPA and/or the Building Codes state that? (i.e not
include it in the same section as porte cochere). It would make our
lives easier.
A8.15.7.5 describes "Short-term transient storage" and states that it
should not be considered storage or handing of combustibles. So if a
pallet of goods is put down on a dock while a truck is being loaded
and organized for deliveries, would that be short-term transient
storage? I think the original question was in effect, what constitutes
"short-term"? Legit question. Goes back to my unattended comment.
I know appendix material is not part of the standard, however, it is
quite frequently either incorporated into Code or used for
interpretation.
At 08:49 AM 8/30/2010, you wrote:
Exactly. That's why you protect it if its intended use is storage.
We're not the police.
A congregation just moved into their new church we sprinklered after
29 years in their "temporary" sanctuary. Nuff said?
glc
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd
Williams
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 2010 handling and storage of combustibles
If a pallet touches the ground, it's storage? Difficult to police in
real life.
At 08:26 AM 8/30/2010, you wrote:
"..not ever stored.." means they are NEVER placed there for any
reason ever. I have had the pleasure of playing semantics with
those who will say, "they are STAGED, not stored", when I ask for
how long, well that depends, might be a few hours, might be a few
days. So
>from a personal standpoint, staging, handling, storage are
all treated as storage. If there is any chance that any
combustible commodities will be placed within the area for any
length of time, it's a potential STORAGE area.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[email protected]
http://www.ch2m.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 10:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: 2010 handling and storage of combustibles
Can someone please look in the 2010 handbook and tell me what the
intent of 8.15.7.1, 2 and 5 is? According to the way I read it -
.1 states that all overhangs over 4' wide need protection UNLESS
.2,.3 or .4 are met.
.2 states that protection can be omitted if the overhang is over 4'
wide and made of Non-comb material
.5 states that protection is required if the overhang is OVER 2'
wide and combustible materials are STORED
Therefore, if you have a noncombustible canopy that is over 4'-0"
wide where combustibles are loaded and unloaded but not stored then
protection is not required regardless of the size of the overhang?
So now we could have a canopy that covers thousands of square feet
and yet materials are not ever "stored" under them and protection is
not required?
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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860.535.2080
www.fpdc.com
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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860.535.2080
www.fpdc.com
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