Email needs a "Like" button. On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 6:46 AM, Bill Brooks <bill.bro...@brooksfpe.com>wrote:
> I definitely don't agree with this. Pipe racks are routinely installed in > industrial settings and are used for transiting roadways and other parts of > industrial sites. The piping on these racks is designed by folks who use > standards other than NFPA 13. I would recommend using the equivalency > provisions of Section 1.5 in this case and allowing the piping > professionals > the ability to provide the calculations needed. Sometimes we lose sight of > this important provision. > > Bill Brooks > > William N. Brooks, P.E. > Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. > 372 Wilett Drive > Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 > 410-544-3620 > 410-544-3032 FAX > 412-400-6528 Cell > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of > craig.pr...@ch2m.com > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 10:31 AM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Pipe support spacing requirements for structural supports > > If the spacing of pipe rack supports does not meet the spacing requirements > of the NFPA Standards you need to supplement with intermediate hangers in > order to have a compliant installation. I just don't use what's given. > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > craig.pr...@ch2m.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of > rfletc...@aerofire.com > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 9:48 AM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Pipe support spacing requirements for structural supports > > I agree that you would have to follow NFPA 13/15 hanger requirements for > spacing of pipe stands you are building to support pipe around like a pump > set or a transformer. In the pipe rack however I think you can only use > what > you are given. In the past we have used flanges to join bulk pipes in the > rack. Threaded branchlines hold up okay with hangers every 20 ft. Of course > we did all of this back before the scientists got involved in NFPA 13 so if > it was solid, wouldn't wiggle if pulled on, didn't fall down from its' own > weight and didn't move when flow tested it was good enough. > > Ron Fletcher > Aero -Phoenix > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of > craig.pr...@ch2m.com > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 7:29 AM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Pipe support spacing requirements for structural supports > > Whether it's a pipe stand, a hanger or pipe rack, they must conform to the > spacing requirements of the applicable standard. NFPA 15(2012) 5.6 defers > to NFPA 13 for hangers. I can't find any A10.4.1 in NFPA 15, 2012. > > So no, 20' hanger spacing is not compliant with the NFPA 13 or NFPA 15 > standards. The assertions of the structural engineer are incorrect. > > Additionally, I would suggest looking at the installation manuals provided > by the coupling manufacturers to see if they refer to any particular > support > spacing requirements if there is specific direction needed. > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > craig.pr...@ch2m.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Hinson, > Ryan > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 7:07 PM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: Pipe support spacing requirements for structural supports > > I've got a couple projects which have pipe racks for supporting above grade > firewater piping. These rack supports are spaced at 20' or more on center. > From the NFPA 13 Handbook at the beginning of Chapter 9, pipestands are to > have the same safety factors as hangers. NFPA 15 is suggested for > additional guidance. NFPA 13 limits hanger spacing to 15'. NFPA 15 (2012) > Sections 6.3.2.2 and 6.3.2.3 state that firewater piping shall be supported > under fire conditions and shall be supported from steel or concrete > structural members or pipestands. "Do these also need to conform to the 15 > ft maximum spacing?" > > I've received this question from a structural engineer regarding the pipe > support requirements for NFPA 13 (2010) Chapter 9. His assertion is that > this refers to pipe stand and pipe hanger spacing requirements for piping > 8" > and smaller only. As such, his feeling is that there are no limits on > spacing for concrete and steel support conditions other than those required > per AWWA M11 4th Edition Chapter 7 and sound structural engineering design. > Incidentally, NFPA 15 (2012) Section 6.3.2.2 calls out structural supports > specifically as if there is some difference for their design and does not > actually provide a limit. > > Both NFPA 20 (2010) Section 4.13.5 and NFPA 24 (2010) Section 12.1 state > above ground piping and fittings must comply with NFPA 13 regarding hangers > and supports. > > NFPA 15 Section A.10.4.1 refers to AWWA M11 as applicable for installation > of pipe and fittings. > > NFPA 15 Table 6.3.2.2.2 only goes up to 8" pipe. AWWA M11 has some pipe > support requirements for steel piping. At first glance, they do not appear > applicable for fire water systems as they are not specifically included in > Chapter 1 Uses. Chapter 7, Supports for Pipe, states the load is > determined > to be the weight of the water filled pipe. NFPA 13 requires the load to be > 5 times the weight of the water filled pipe (see Section 9.1.1.2(1)). The > 5 > times load factor seems to be only applied to hangers and stands as well, > applying this to steel and concrete supports would be too conservative. It > appears the design of the steel and concrete supports would be covered by > AISC 13th edition, ASCE 7-05, and ACI 318 codes. > > As an example to the above difference: See 8" Schedule 40 pipe (this is > standard weight pipe). The wall thickness is .322 inches. Per AWWA M11 > Table 7.1, this approximately nominal 5/16" wall thickness can have > supports > 45 ft apart. 8" schedule 10 (3/16" wall thickness) can be spanned up to > 38' > according to this table! I'm not up on the nuances of piping and > deflection > but I believe the intent is to provide considerable safety into the > supports > of all types for firewater related piping. > > Is it the opinion of the forum that 15' along with the allowable extensions > per NFPA 15 is the maximum or are we to use structurally designed supports > at their stated allowable spans for supporting this piping? What say you? > > Ryan L. Hinson, EIT, SET > Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group Burns & > McDonnell Minneapolis-St. Paul Office > 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300 > Bloomington, MN 55437 > Direct: 952-656-3662 > Fax: 952-229-2923 > rhin...@burnsmcd.com > www.burnsmcd.com<BLOCKED::www.burnsmcd.com> > > > Proud recipient of PSMJ's Premier Award for Client Satisfaction > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > < > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachment > s/20121106/24d34187/attachment.html> > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20121110/5ad8d8a1/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
