What Steve said with the added caveat about when you came on board the design team, if it was design build from the start and how well you are acquainted with the Civil engineer whom you are about to throw under the bus. You don't mention the flow test, construction type or total square feet, all are needed to determine the IFC Appendix B Fire Flow requirement. If it's a small sprinklered building it might be okay but it's doubtful and I don't know of any municipality (around here) that will allow a dead end 6" longer than 50', even to a single hydrant. When we encounter this type situation it usually requires and pump and tank. We are just now installing a project with a similar issue and it got pretty messy for the Civil Engineer.
Ron F -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 3:58 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Sprinkler System Connecting to a Dead end City main Agree with what's his name from Fargo. I'm not aware of any code that arbitrarily prohibits arrangement of sprinkler lateral and fire hydrant in proximity on a dead end main. The problem for you is that the language from 13E 4.3.5 allows for a very wide and subjective range of interpretation. I suggest you sit back, rethink the situation and perhaps arrive at a contrarian conclusion, i.e. that this isn't your problem. You are not responsible for the adequacy of the water supply. I can think of two other parties who are or might be: the owner and the water purveyor. If the owner of the project was given approval to build whatever they are building, and the water supply isn't adequate in the eyes of the fire official, then the city departments didn't consult one another or the approving agency didn't completely vet the project with all stakeholders. If the city gave approval then they owe the owner a project. Most fire officials won't give statutory approval, aka entitlement to a project if the water purveyor can't furnish a "Will Serve" letter. The fire department says, "We need X,XXX GPM at 20 psi" and the water district or department says, "We can provide that." If the FD has an issue with fire service and hydrant on the same DE, the time to bring that up is during the entitlement or preliminary planning approval stages, not during sprinkler plan check. I hate to throw you a non-answer curveball, but I'd go back to the GC and with an RFI that says, "Y'all got what could be one helluva dealbreaker here ..." Steve Leyton -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 3:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Sprinkler System Connecting to a Dead end City main One must not confuse hose requirements for the sprinkler system with hose requirements for manual firefighting. They are normally separate calculations. The option (1) you cited would include water for the sprinkler system plus the NFPA 13-required hose allowances. If the supply isn't adequate, your water flow test should identify that fact. It would also identify whether you had the code-required water for manual firefighting available at 20 psi. As to supplying the FDC form the same city main: that is done in most circumstances. In fact, it is unusual NOT to do it that way. You are correct, the backflow will prevent the sprinkler water from entering the city main under pressure from connection to the FDC. That's what backflow assemblies do - prevent backflow. The location of the hydrant and sprinkler system on a dead-end main is not germane to the discussion. If backflow was an issue, it would be a problem on a looped main as well. Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Medina Jr Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Fire Sprinkler System Connecting to a Dead end City main Forum, I have a situation where a new fire sprinkler system is to be tied into a proposed new 6" city main which is planning to be extended 363' from its current dead end location. 20 feet upstream of the proposed 6" Fire Service is where a new fire hydrant is proposed.There are fire hydrants located within 150' of the FDC but they are located on the opposite side of the street, but will not allow that configuration. because of the traffic running over the hoses.Currently there are no Fire Hydrants located on the same side of the street that the project is on. Needless to say that the underground plans have been rejected because the Fire Department Plan Checker states that it is going to create and feed into a circulating loop. I tried explaining to him that the 6" Double Check Detector Assembly should prevent that from happening, but he was adamant about not allowing a fire hydrant on a dead end city main to supply the Fire Sprinkler Systems F.D.C. if it's supplied from the same de ad end city main. I could understand his concerns but doesn't NFPA-13E's method #1 allow it? is there anything in the International Fire Code addressing fire hydrants on a dead end city main or has anybody come across a similar situation? NFPA-13E Section 4.3.5 'Where hose streams will be used, water should be taken from sources that do not reduce the sprinklered protection. Pumper's should be supplied by one of the following methods: (1) Connecting pumper's to large mains from which flow tests have indicated adequate flows to supply both sprinklers and the required hose streams. (2) Connecting pumper's to water mains not needed for sprinkler supply. (3) Drafting pumper's from static sources. If anybody could help, Thank You. George Medina Jr. Mobile: 323-906-5701 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler .org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. 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