Todd, You are 100% correct about BIM coordination having to be run correctly to work. The best projects we have worked on with full BIM coordination were ones where the GC hires an outside sub who only does coordination. Some GCs in the mid-atlantic are getting better at running it themselves, though. The worst is when they try to let one of the current trades run the coordination.
But I think that goes for a lot of other aspects of the construction trade as well. The real question is, do you have to actually have experience turning a wrench to know which end to use? Benjamin Young On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Todd - Work <[email protected]> wrote: > I have not done a BIM job yet (quoted some, but didn't get any), but my > experience in the 3D coordination world is that unless it is run correctly > and done timely, it is useless. I am woking on a project that is being run > by a large national general contractor. After 7 weeks of coordination > meetings, I have had to make 2 additional visits to address issues and will > likely be making a 3rd if the change order is approved. Among the other > problems, the GC was letting the plumber and electrician install while the > coordination process was ongoing because it was necessary to keep on > schedule. Yes, designers still have to know which end of the wrench to hold. > > Todd G Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > www.fpdc.com > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > > > On Jan 19, 2014, at 11:05 AM, Ben Young <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Let me throw a small wrench in this argument. Does full 3D BIM modeling > > lessen or even eliminate the need for a designer with field experience? > > > > Our experience with full 3D modeling has been tremendous all around. The > > project managers and designers feel much more comfortable with the > layout, > > and the field has found a tremendous reduction in having to re-work pipe. > > Its gotten to the point where we will model the building ourselves and do > > collision detection even when no other trades are doing so. > > > > The hardest problem with full project 3D coordination was getting our > > installers to not start changing stuff when others were in their way, and > > to check the BIM drawings to see who messed up what. > > > > > > I think that install experience is invaluable for most designers, and I > > personally regret not having any myself, but after 14 years in the > > industry, and countless humble experiences from installers, I think lack > of > > installation experience can be overcome (and not in 14 years). > > > > Its all about how you train the designers; making sure they understand > that > > their top priority is field support, and making the fitters jobs easier. > > You also have to train your field guys to give positive feedback, and > > redline drawings. This is critical. Early on in my career, we would > only > > hear generalities, like 'your design was terrible, you hit everything' or > > we wouldn't hear anything at all: no news is good news, right? > > > > Now we make sure our junior designers get redlines back from the field > and > > go out and see issues and problems, as well as places they did a good > job. > > > > Another important thing I picked up a little while ago (thank you Mr. > > Church) is that you almost always send a superintendent or foreman out to > > any field surveys with the designer. This creates so much collaboration > and > > buy-in from both parties, its great. You get a true team effort from the > > first day on a project, and it stops about 90% of the animosity on bigger > > projects. > > > > > > And to kind-of answer the original question, NFPA does make a pocket > > fitters guide for 13. :) > > > > > > Benjamin Young > > > > > >> On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Todd - Work <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> There was one company I worked for early on that had e design something > >> and then spend a week or two in the field actually installing it. Got a > lot > >> of valuable experience that way. Unfortunately with current licensing > laws, > >> that is somewhere between impractical and impossible. > >> > >> Todd G Williams, PE > >> Fire Protection Design/Consulting > >> Stonington, CT > >> www.fpdc.com > >> 860-535-2080 (ofc) > >> > >>> On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:38 AM, jgamble <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>> I would have to agree with the premise that more than ever we need more > >> designers with in field experience > >>> as well as fitters with layout and hydraulic experience. If anything, > >> the two should be more intertwined. > >>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone > >>> > >>> -------- Original message -------- > >>> From: Charles Thurston <[email protected]> > >>> Date:01/19/2014 5:31 AM (GMT-07:00) > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: Re: into the future w/ NFPA 13 > >>> > >>> Hello Brad, > >>> > >>> I dis-agree with splitting them. If you do not know how to install it, > >> You sure da heck can't tell someone else how to install it. In 35 years > on > >> and around construction, I have seen many many buildings designed (with > >> details) that can not be built the way they were designed. Is that what > our > >> industry wants for Fire Sprinklers? > >>> > >>> Saturday, January 18, 2014, 9:40:52 PM, you wrote: > >>> > >>>> I remember when fitters knew 13 as well or better than designers. > >>>> The schedules and tables were essential then, because handheld > >>>> calculators were not prevalent- 13 was a Field Guide for > >>>> installation. This is not the case anymore. What should we do? Split > >> DESIGN from INSTALLATION? > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Best regards, > >>> Charles Thurston mailto:[email protected] > >>> Systems Design Manager > >>> NICET Certified > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
