It it's a HORIZONTAL fire wall that means it fell down. ;)
Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29303 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 10:05 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fire Wall Integrity Robert, never implied or condoned "horizontal fire wall" since there's no such animal, at least when applying the performance criteria of firewalls. But it is a term that gets thrown about frequently especially when speaking of pedestal buildings ( a discussion in of itself), hence why I wrote LOL as my greeting. John Drucker - Mobile Email [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cell/Text 732-904-6823 Bob Holland <[email protected]> wrote: The IBC is available with commentary. The commentary often sheds light on the intent of the code and an although it is not the code per se it is useful in interpretation discussions. This is the commentary for the definition of fire wall. Fire walls must meet the construction requirements in section 706. The requirements for fire walls are much more restrictive than for fire barriers or fire partitions. The material constituting the fire wall must be noncombustible in all construction types except Type V. The vertical and horizontal continuity requirements are much more restrictive and opening protective. A fire wall, unlike the fire barrier and fire partition, must be constructed so it will remain in place if the construction on either side of it collapses. However, the fire wall is not required to remain in place if construction on both sides of it collapses (i.e., the fire wall is not required to be a free-standing cantilever wall). Fire walls are used to divide a structure into separate buildings (see the definition of "Areas, building" in Section 502.1 ). To be considered separate buildings, the division must be vertical. The code applies the term "fire wall" to vertically constructed assemblies only and not to horizontal assemblies. ROBERT HOLLAND Jr. AIA, CDT, LEED AP, PMP ARCHITECTS / ENGINEERS / INTERIOR DESIGNERS 7400 West Campus Rd. Suite 150 New Albany, OH 43054 www.shremshock.com<http://www.shremshock.com> t 614 545 4550 x 286 f 614 545 4555 [email protected] Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker - Home Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 6:32 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Wall Integrity Hi Bill, Hmmm, wait until after the fire ?, not me. Here are the EXACT definitions and stipulations from the 2015 IBC that apply; 702 FIRE WALL. A fire-resistance-rated wall having protected openings, which restricts the spread of fire and extends continuously from the foundation to or through the roof, with sufficient structural stability under fire conditions to allow collapse of construction on either side without collapse of the wall. 706.1.1 Party walls. Any wall located on a lot line between adjacent buildings, which is used or adapted for joint service between the two buildings, shall be constructed as a fire wall in accordance with Section706. Party walls shall be constructed without openings and shall create separate buildings. 706.3 Materials. Fire walls shall be of any approved noncombustible materials. Exception: Buildings of Type V construction. 714.1 Scope. The provisions of this section shall govern the materials and methods of construction used to protect through penetrations and membrane penetrations of horizontal assemblies and fire-resistance-rated wall assemblies. 714.3 Fire-resistance-rated walls. Penetrations into or through fire walls, fire barriers, smoke barrier walls and fire partitions shall comply with Sections714.3.1 through 714.3.3. 714.3.1 Through penetrations. Through penetrations of fire-resistance-rated walls shall comply with Section714.3.1.1or 714.3.1.2. 714.3.1.1 Fire-resistance-rated assemblies. Penetrations shall be installed as tested in an approved fire-resistance-rated assembly. 714.3.1.2 Through-penetration firestop system. Through penetrations shall be protected by an approved penetration firestop system installed as tested in accordance with ASTM E 814 or UL 1479, with a minimum positive pressure differential of 0.01 inch (2.49 Pa) of water and shall have an F rating of not less than the required fire-resistance rating of the wall penetrated. So, a designer will need to demonstrate a tested/listed system for the penetrating items for the specific application. Another issue to consider with Party Walls, since a party wall sits on a lot line and thus in addition to creating separate buildings also creates separate lots. With that said individual property ownership issues could necessitate an easement, so ownership issues may need to be considered. Bill to answer your question it's the Missouri thing..show me, not just that's it permitted by code but how. Hope this helps, John John Drucker, CET Assistant Construction Official Fire Protection Subcode Official Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector Borough of Red Bank Red Bank, New Jersey Email: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cell/Text: 732-904-6823 -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 3:19 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Fire Wall Integrity John, now that you bring up the subject of collapse on both sides, just how do you treat this subject? I have seen the interpretation which appears to suggest that a sprinkler pipe penetration of a fire wall would not be acceptable if the pipe (in coming down with collapsing side) somehow compromised the gypsumboard separation assembly. Same with an electrical conduit. I'm also not sure how to design the collapsing side in such a way that it falls cleanly to the ground without some member shifting sideways and penetrating the separating assembly. In other words, do you wait till after the fire to say it works or doesn't work? Bill Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [ <mailto:[email protected]> mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 6:10 AM To: <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] Subject: Re: Floor Control Stations LOL Horizontal Fire Wall......we inspectors are still scratching our heads how this meets the performance definition of a firewall...collapse on one side, stays in place....then again sprinkler guys are famous for skyhooks. You just can't make this stuff up. John Drucker - Mobile Email <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:[email protected]> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cell/Text 732-904-6823 "rongreenman ." < <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]> wrote: Roland, Would you think with all the hoopla about non-combustible floor assemblies being equivalent to horizontal fire walls. and high rises typically not needing vertical fire separation, that a floor would fit a loose definition of a zone? Two floors, even if within the area limits of a single system seem to define two zones. Just thinking, and remember that Leyton was concerned this morning that my meds have lost their efficacy, so I may just be having another flashback to the sixties. On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:00 PM, David Blackwell < <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]> wrote: > On a related note and of interest to this forum should be the change > to next section, IFC 914.3.1.2, in the 2015 edition. The limiting > phrase "In buildings that are more than 420 feet (128m) in building > height," has been added to the 2015 edition published by ICC. Prior > to that change, the 2012 edition applied the separate supply piping > requirement per IFC 914.3.1.2 more broadly to include high-rise > buildings below that height. > > Respectfully, > > > David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFPE, CFI I Chief Engineer Office of > State Fire Marshal SC Department of Labor, Licensing, & Regulation, > 141 Monticello Trail, Columbia, SC 29203 > Telephone: 803.896.9800 [Office] 803.896.9833 [Direct] > Fax: 803.896.9806 [Office] > Email: <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > Website: <http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/> http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ > > > Please note that you can sign up to receive automatic information on > SC Division of Fire and Life Safety current events, policies, laws and > procedures by visiting our Web site at: > <http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/> http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Roland > Huggins > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 2:45 PM > To: <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > Subject: Re: Floor Control Stations > > The main point is that for standard high rises, the codes and > standards only require a single riser. > > Very Tall High Rises (>420 ft) are a unique beast. The IFC requires > these tall buildings to have 2 risers per zone. Not 100% sure but I > don't think they mean each floor is a zone. The same section says > "Each riser shall supply sprinklers on alternate floors". A lot of > these building going up in parts of the Middle East but not hearing > about any here in the USA. Any > one involved with one? > > Roland > > > Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering > American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives > Dallas, TX > <http://www.firesprinkler.org> http://www.firesprinkler.org < <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > > > > > > > On Mar 20, 2015, at 9:55 AM, David Blackwell < <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]> > wrote: > > > > It is also found in Section 914.3.1.1 of the 2012 IFC, which is > referenced from 2012 IFC Table 903.2.11.6 [Additional Required Fire > Suppression Systems]. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFPE, CFI I Chief Engineer Office of > > State Fire Marshal SC Department of Labor, Licensing, & Regulation, > > 141 Monticello Trail, Columbia, SC 29203 > > Telephone: 803.896.9800 [Office] 803.896.9833 [Direct] > > Fax: 803.896.9806 [Office] > > Email: <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > > Website: <http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/> http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ > > > > > > Please note that you can sign up to receive automatic information on > > SC Division of Fire and Life Safety current events, policies, laws > > and procedures by visiting our Web site at: > > <http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/> http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum > > [ <mailto:[email protected]> mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Fairchild, Jack > > Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 12:15 PM > > To: <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Floor Control Stations > > > > IBC 2009/2012 - 403.3.1 Buildings in excess of 420 feet in height. > > > > Jack Fairchild > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum > > [ <mailto:[email protected]> mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Dale Wingard > > Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 11:45 AM > > To: '[email protected]' > > Subject: RE: Floor Control Stations > > > > Jeremy, > > > > I believe that is just a Marriott requirement. > > > > Dale F. Wingard SET > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum > > [ <mailto:[email protected]> mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Jeremy Frazier > > Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 10:38 AM > > To: <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > > Subject: Floor Control Stations > > > > Where in NFPA/IBC does it say that if you have 2 standpipes, your > > sprinkler system should connect to both standpipes? I've looked > > through 14 (2010),13 > > (2010) and IBC (2009) and I have not found anything requiring it. > > Is > this one of those things like electrical rooms with 2 penetrations or > is there and actual code? > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeremy Frazier > > > > P:571-931-1004 > > F:571-931-1010 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > > > > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > > n> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl er.org _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > > > > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > > n> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > > > > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > > n> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl er.org _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > > > > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > > n> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.or g> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.or g> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. 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