OK. I'll buy that the FDC must be on the discharge side of the pump, but not because of any argument presented so far, but because Ed pointed to the requirement (which I missed first go round). I'm still not sold on this over-pressuriztiuon issue being a real issue except in extreme cases (that I can't think of an example of but believe could occur). Nevertheless I had to get out a book and found the reference, then found Ed's post directing Brian to that requirement. Thanks for the good discussion. The Forum has lost some of it's panache recently (maybe since George's passing) and I miss it.
On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Travis Mack <[email protected]> wrote: > Ron: > > In your description, if I read it correctly, you are having pumps in > series. This means pressure is additive. > > So, if you hit the pump suction with 150 psi and the pump boosts another > 150 psi then you are well in excess of system ratings. > > However, if you can guarantee the pump is shut down and out of service, > then you situation would be acceptable. > > I think the intent of the standard is to make sure you are pumping into > the system with the FDC after the pump discharge check valve. It makes more > sense the way Ed states it to be after the pump discharge control valve. > That way if the pump is taken out of service, the FDC is still a viable > option. > > By matter of convenience, we almost always place the FDC feed after the > second pump bypass control valve. This way, we are also after the pump > discharge control valve. > > Travis Mack, SET > MFP Design, LLC > "Follow" us on Facebook: > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > Send large files to MFP Design via: > https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 25, 2015, at 2:39 PM, rongreenman . <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > That would be the check valve that separates the system(s) feed from the > > source. The pumper will obviously reduce the source residual to less than > > the pumper discharge and hence the check valve. Where that is is > > unimportant as long as it isolates the pumper discharge from the source > > =the water is being taken from. > > > >> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 2:35 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> What happens when the fire department pumps into the FDC with more than > >> the normal street pressure and over pressurizes the system? > >> I think that you would need to separate the FDC from the city supply. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of > rongreenman . > >> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 8:36 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: FDC on Fire Pump > >> > >> Devil's advocate. The code says there can be not control valve in the > FDC > >> line (itself). It also has to be downstream of the check valve that > >> separates the source from the system so you don't pump a loop back to > the > >> pumper. I don't recall off the top of my head anything that says you > have > >> to be able to isolate the pump without effecting the FDC but I'll buy > Ed's > >> statement since I can't refute it without actually opening a book and it > >> just makes sense. But lets assume a vault in the yard with a DCVA, PIV > and > >> FDC tied in after the last control valve there, then say 200 ft of UG > to a > >> pump with a by-pass loop and then to a manifold with five risers. Then > take > >> the pump out completely and tell me what's different than the place next > >> door without a pump. In the first example do I have to run that FDC line > >> 200' extra feet to tie it in after the pump but not do the same on the > >> place with no pump? > >> > >> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 8:22 AM, Brian Harris < > [email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Sounds nice but I only have the 2007 edition..... > >>> > >>> Brian Harris, CET > >>> BVS Systems Inc. > >>> bvssytemsinc.com > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry > >>> Keeping > >>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 10:49 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: RE: FDC on Fire Pump > >>> > >>> The schematic that you are remembering might be Figure A.4.20.1.2(b) > >>> of NFPA 20-2013, which shows a FDC downstream of all of the control > >>> valves and check valves associated with the fire pump installation. > >>> > >>> Larry Keeping > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Brian > >>> Harris > >>> Sent: September-25-15 9:48 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: RE: FDC on Fire Pump > >>> > >>> For some reason I thought I remembered seeing a schematic but > >>> apparently not. So as long as the FDC ties into the pump discharge > >>> downstream of the discharge check valve I'm good to go correct? > >>> > >>> Brian Harris, CET > >>> BVS Systems Inc. > >>> bvssytemsinc.com > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of > >>> [email protected] > >>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 9:41 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: RE: FDC on Fire Pump > >>> > >>> 13 (2013) 8.17.2.4.8 > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Brian > >>> Harris > >>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 6:40 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: FDC on Fire Pump > >>> > >>> Glad its Friday but I must be having a brain cramp..... Where does it > >>> specify where the FDC ties into the pump discharge? > >>> > >>> Brian Harris, CET > >>> BVS Systems Inc. > >>> Sprinkler Division > >>> bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/> > >>> Phone: 704.896.9989 > >>> Fax: 704.896.1935 > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >>> er.org _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >>> er.org _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >>> er.org _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >>> er.org _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >>> er.org > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Ron Greenman > >> Instructor > >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology > >> Bates Technical College > >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > >> Tacoma, WA 98405 > >> > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > >> > >> 253.680.7346 > >> 253.576.9700 (cell) > >> > >> Member: > >> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > >> > >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > >> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > >> > >> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > >> inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > > -- > > Ron Greenman > > Instructor > > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > > Bates Technical College > > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > > 253.680.7346 > > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > > > Member: > > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, > > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > > inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
