Is insufficient water quantity at site is reason for tank requirement? I’m used to the water utility to not allow bigger than a 1” fill line as first level automatic fill line.
Even if you run 15 inspector’s tests and a 2” water system supply test (aka main drain test) per manifold it doesn’t take all that long for top off to be complete. Quickly open or shut off larger valves and the neighbors might experience sprinkler water flow alarms. They’ll try to figure out why Big Red is in their parking lot again. A bigger line is needed for refill after maintenance. If hydrants are supplied by municipal water system, with sprinkler systems supplied with water from tank by pump(s) having a large automatic refill may cause problems. Again assuming marginal water supply is reason for tank. Flow some water in a roll paper storage facility, have an engine flow a few 2 1/2”’s. Now an automatic 4” tank fill line. First FF’s inside buildings don’t like hose lines to go limp. And I can tell you in my department only a few of the firefighters or officers would have naturally look towards the pump room with thought of tank fill being cause for sudden drop in suction pressure on fire engine. Even most who’d worked in FP wouldn’t think to check there first. Answer: Question involves several different players. Hopefully they will understand the issues. Good luck. Best. Bruce Verhei > On Jun 13, 2018, at 16:11, Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> wrote: > > One way to mitigate this is to have multiple smaller valves that operate > sequentially. In other words, you can use maybe a 2-1/2” valve and a 4” valve > to replace a single 4” valve (for example). You set the smaller valve to open > at 90% full and the 4” valve to open at 80% (I’m just pulling random > numbers). That way, under normal fill conditions you just have the small > valve open to refill the tank. But in a fire scenario when the level drops > faster than the smaller valve can keep up with, then the bigger valve opens. > > To answer the original question: Yes, you can reduce the tank size based on > being able to refill it, but as Craig mentioned, there are some caveats. I > assume the tank is a break tank feeding a fire pump, but does that fire pump > feed only sprinkler systems? Does it feed a standpipe with hose valves? Does > it feed hydrants on site? Would whatever you are protecting normally require > any redundancy, or is the tank being provided solely because the available > water supply is insufficient? > > -Kyle M > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Kenneth Berman > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 2:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Ground Storage tank > > When I do inspections in the "country", and there's a storage tank with > altitude valve, control valves are often partially closed to throttle the > flow. When the 4" valve opens to fill the tank, it drops the pressure so much > there's no water for toilets and sinks. Building owners, or occupants, "fix" > the pressure problem long after the initial construction and acceptance > tests. I can't count on the water main to resupply during demand. > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected]> > wrote: > When sizing a water storage tank for fire protection do no forget the IFC > code requirement for Fire Flow in section 507. It's an additional water > supply requirement apart from sprinkler flow. This is especially critical if > the municipal supply is not sufficient to meet the required flow rates as > dictated by the Approved Method for determining Fire Flow. > > But to your question. It sounds like you want to take credit for the > incoming water supply flow rate to reduce your storage capacity, correct? > > If that is the case, there are a few things that you must consider and you > must get approval from the AHJ and any insurer. > 1. Is the municipal flow rate guaranteed to be available 24/7/365? > 2. Will the local Fire Code official and the owner's insurer approve of the > concept. > > In theory you could take the credit and use the municipal supply as a buffer > against the increased tank size but at some point in time you reach a point > where you could consume at a rate greater than can be made up especially with > the fire flow demand rate. We've only been successful in incorporating this > concept on one occasion. Typically, our projects tend to be high value and > high hazard and the lack of an adequate water supply for fire suppression and > firefighting is not something that the AHJs or Insurers were willing to > compromise on. But when the owner asks, we'll oblige and ask the question of > the AHJ. > > Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | > [email protected] | www.jacobs.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of George W. Henderson > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 2:29 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Ground Storage tank > > I am attempting my first participation. > We have the need for a ground storage tank. The MUD cannot supply volume or > pressure. We size the tank to satisfy the code water supply duration. This > tank about 200,000 gallons, Is it allowed to use the the MUD water supply > refill to reduce the size of the tank? > > -- > George W. Henderson VP RME 0054-GD > Eagle Automatic Fire Sprinkler Inc > 1777 Upland Dr. #107 > Houston, TX 77043 > 713-939-0708 (office) > 832-435-1393 (cell) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=OgZOSER8c1RLeytEexU279Q2qk0jVwkrOdYe5iSi-kk&r=6qYbbLx8x0UrMujmEGNoh-2hzoFD2d1EB5d2sQF0_OI&m=IjGuE8b8uSlg8Jr-VSUCrW37fKKQ-DnT0-mJlALaPVg&s=fqpzgBBqeBWkNGsyB3C517JIsF-D3XkgEBUwFFDmltM&e= > ________________________________________________________________________________________ > > NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged > information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, > copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended > recipients is strictly prohibited. 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