Roland ICC certification process. It may be better than nothing. I don’t do well in hard chairs. Last one I took was 2 x 2 hour sessions. It took me about 1:30 for each, including re-check of first answers. You need to know nothing about how fire behavior, contribution of contents and structure, containment, detection and control or suppression, how people tend to act, or more advanced ideas as cueing, ....
You do need moderate reading class comprehension skills, and some ability to follow the outline formats used in code and standard land. But people do fail, and some need to study to pass, so I guess it’s better than nothing. I guess I studied too. Mine was just a couple hours at home a week on a the couch. That’s all the time though. How else do you keep current? Best. Bruce Verhei > On Sep 28, 2018, at 07:31, Roland Huggins <[email protected]> wrote: > > BULLSEYE. IF I could make Mark KING for the day, my advice would be: > > IF engineering doc's identified the design basis for all portions of the > building, identified the available water supply, and whether said water > supply was adequate (aka does the building need a pump) then get the hell > out of the way. Well also ID if they have specials requirements such as the > sprinklers being used with glass for a rated portion and the glass assembly > is way beyond the listing. If memory serves, this is effectively what the > SFPE white paper says (give or take a bit) > > The Owner’s Certification is a good start. It BTW now includes identifying > the water supply as of the newly released 2019 ed. Unfortunately, this > certificate is not being applied. If we could work with the AHJ community > and get it applied ACROSS THE BOARD, though it will be a painful transition, > it would be worth it. Individually this can’t be accomplished since it’s one > more thing to do (aka a pain) and the owners / GC won’t rehire individuals > that cause pain. > > IF AHJ’s had to show competency would be a huge step forward. ICC has > certification programs for AHJs. The Code program is heavily used by > building code officials but the sprinkler program is virtually extinct, > almost zero AHJ’s. The AHJ is our safety net to catch the bad installations. > There are some goods one (such as on our Forum) but overall a huge hole in > the net. The ICC is considering dropping this program. I told them unless > it becomes a code requirement (similar to the NICET III on contractors), > nothing will change. > > I’d sure appreciate some private input on starting a push for actually > requiring submittal of the Owner’s Certificate (yea, I Know it is already > identified in chapter 23 for submittal). Contractor’s: tell me should we > push it. AHJ’s: tell me how to reach the masses within your clan. > > Roland > > Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering > American Fire Sprinkler Assn. > Dallas, TX > http://www.firesprinkler.org > > Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives > > > > >> On Sep 28, 2018, at 6:56 AM, Mark.Phelps <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> John, >> I agree with you at least 99% with a small reservation for the unique >> situations where things like a retail occupancy (think auto parts store) has >> 12 feet of rack storage for tires. Someone in the system needs to be >> responsible (and be financially responsible, E&O) for the outcome. And by >> “in the system”, I mean designers, installers, plan reviewers, inspectors, >> and AHJ’s. Present company excluded, there are scads of “AHJ’s” across our >> great country who are the least qualified in this group of five. I will >> suggest that a grand solution to the situation could be recognized by the >> following changes. >> 1) NFPA 13 should be restricted in its scope to the actual title of the >> Pamplet “Installation of a Sprinkler System”. Emphasis on INSTALLATION! >> 2) A new NFPA standard should be established for the DESIGN of a Sprinkler >> System. Call it NFPA 64,000, and limit it to the design basis only but also >> establish the bulk of the content as Prescriptive Design, (if this, then >> this) and clearly define the line between Prescriptive Design and >> Engineering Design. >> 3) Go to the schools that offer FPE degrees and improve the curriculum to >> include Sprinkler System Design and passive fire protection design for a >> broad array of applications and occupancies. >> 4) AHJ’s must be regulated to avoid having unqualified, or under-qualified >> individuals “reviewing and approving” the work of highly qualified Designers >> and Engineers. >> Could any or all of this be implemented, or are we all just too closed >> minded to “ the way we’ve always done it”? >> >> Mark at Aero >> 602 820-7894 >> >>> On Sep 28, 2018, at 3:27 AM, John Drucker <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> It’s a joke, most AHJs know that the NICET techs are doing the heavy lift >>> and the PE swoops in at the 11th hour affixes the signature and seal and >>> collects their $ 500. Lets just stop this charade and recognize the NICET >>> techs. The principal engineer/architect of record simply review for >>> conformance, ie how the sprinkler system plays nicely with the building, >>> correct code references, issues the review letter avoiding the paid by the >>> page deal that’s going on. >>> >>> John Drucker >>> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> on >>> behalf of Steve Leyton <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:29:49 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: RE: FPE / SFPE >>> >>> I’m offended too – Sunday night. Though I’m presenting Monday so two >>> drinks is the limit. >>> >>> From: Sprinklerforum >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pete >>> Schwab >>> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 3:28 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: RE: FPE / SFPE >>> >>> I’m offended. See you Saturday night >>> >>> >>> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >>> Behalf Of Roland Huggins >>> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:21 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: FPE / SFPE >>> >>> The issue of unqualified engineers is an old song and dance that I don’t >>> want to resurrect but this is a different nuance. I hope it doesn’t flare >>> into a drawn out discussion but one reply on this thread then if you wish >>> to discuss further, it’ll have to be over drinks. >>> >>> I never said they didn’t OFFER training. I said they blissfully ACCEPT >>> engineers practicing outside their field of expertise with no >>> repercussions. This all stemmed from the development of the SFPE white >>> paper on whether sprinkler design was engineering (which I was actively >>> involved with). How can one insist that an engineer be the only one that >>> can do something while the other hand ACKNOWLEDGES THAT 90+ % of the >>> involved engineers are practicing outside their field of expertise? This >>> spun me up. Now combine that with the sprinkler contractors in a state >>> attempting to report unqualified engineers to the Board of Registration and >>> the local SFPE chapter saying lets not flood the Board with every possible >>> complaint so we’ll help pare it down (GREAT IDEA and effort). When I was >>> told that the National SFPE organization told them to cease and desist such >>> activities, I lost it. And they lost my membership. >>> >>> If you’re still offended, I’ll buy you two drinks to help overcome your >>> misguided offense. If you have something that counters the subject of my >>> statement, I’d love to hear it. IF you simple want to debate it, let’s do >>> it off forum please. >>> >>> FYI for the Forum - Scott and I are buds and have known each other a long >>> time. >>> >>> Roland >>> >>> Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering >>> American Fire Sprinkler Assn. >>> Dallas, TX >>> http://www.firesprinkler.org >>> >>> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 27, 2018, at 2:04 PM, Scott Futrell <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Note that I changed the subject. >>> I believe I’m offended now, my friend. >>> SFPE’s Sprinkler Design for Engineers Class is specifically targeting the >>> engineers that aren’t FPE’s. It is a thirty-two hour class that is written >>> and taught by incredibly talented individuals (Mr. Denhardt and Mr. >>> Scandaliato that most of you know well, to name two) and has been available >>> for over 15 years now. The class content is based upon the current edition >>> of NFPA 13 and NFPA 20 and goes from writing specifications; to taking flow >>> tests; teaching them hydraulic calculations, by hand; working with pump >>> specifications; spending a great deal of time on hazard classification and >>> why it isn’t just pick it out of the Annex; and presenting new technologies >>> direct from manufacturers at every class. >>> I can’t do much about hiring FPE’s, but can tell you that there are >>> openings for about 300 FPE’s so there aren’t that many around to start with. >>> This class is open to, and attended by PE’s, sprinkler designers, and >>> AHJ’s, and again, the class teaches them what they should be specifying and >>> reviewing and how to do it. >>> >>> Scott Futrell, PE, FSFPE, SET, CWBSD >>> >>> Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2 >>> Cell: (612) 759-5556 >>> >>> From: Sprinklerforum >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roland >>> Huggins >>> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 10:33 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: Exposure protection of large windows. >>> >>> And the SFPE blissfully (and intentionally) ignores this well known fact. >>> That’s why I dropped my membership with them over a decade ago. >>> >>> >>> Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering >>> American Fire Sprinkler Assn. >>> Dallas, TX >>> http://www.firesprinkler.org >>> >>> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 25, 2018, at 11:53 AM, Steve Leyton <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Unfortunately out here, no one hires independent FPEs to prepare specs. >>> They are all part of larger firms and quite a few of their engineers are >>> plumbers with a copy of 13. >>> >>> Todd G Williams, PE >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwICAg&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=tX2naePPwI0uUZB0bJ5RRnfayDv7XTHJXRM-c0pfl5U&s=V-hQUwpFcv9tyQGrhxGt7Ccp5sAncF3NpasJ63Cnov8&e= >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
