Craig, I’m not a registered sprinkler scientist either, but I would say that, considering these are small private garages, the sprinklers would almost certainly activate even if only the lower car was burning. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think there is anywhere for the heat to go. And certainly you would get some advantage from cooling the air and pre-wetting adjacent surfaces.
I think I prefer the idea of having heads below the obstruction, but I also don’t think it is unreasonable to think that EH2 at the ceiling could be sufficient. I’m kind of wondering, in the original poster’s scenario, are these private garages all adjacent? Can you consider them individually from a hydraulics standpoint, or are you going to end up with a remote area that consists of like 30 garages and 60 sprinkler heads? That might be more than the anticipated water supply would be capable of, if you don’t already have and automatic standpipe with a fire pump. -Kyle M Not a Scientist From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 9:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Car Lifts I hear what you’re saying John. I don’t know how the NFPA 13 committee came to this conclusion about car stackers or exactly what type of stacker system this criteria is based upon. There are many variations. But even in EH2, you are still expected to deal with obstructions to discharge. The explanation in the Handbook would seem to contradict standard design guidelines. Not sure what the writers were referring to when they said “obstructed by occupancy” and if water doesn’t or can’t reach the burning hazard, some might call that a design deficiency. But from a hazards analysis perspective, the concept of overhead sprinklers above of a significantly obstructed hazard won’t control or have much effect on the shielded hazard until the shielded fire grows beyond the perimeter of the lift or involves the upper vehicle at which time triggers overhead sprinklers. To me the idea of overhead sprinklers only would be like putting sprinklers in the attic and expecting them to protect the space below the ceiling. Just my opinion, I’m not a rocket surgeon or anything like that nor do I play one on TV. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jacobs.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=MCRILeqcerKLF1vrtxUtzydZazyv4tRmS6-zZMBM-58&s=YScItXRO16aRTGqVLPUqdHZxJeE_jFtlRPYcIHIev7E&e=> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 10:41 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Car Lifts I agree with what you are saying here Craig, but as Mike already pointed out, NFPA 13 2016 does seem to cover this. The explanatory material in the handbook even seems to go on to explain that extra hazard was chosen for these hazard specifically because of the flammability and the fact that it’s “severely obstructed by occupancy, not structural conditions”. [cid:image001.jpg@01D4B883.0D0E1400] [cid:image002.png@01D4B883.0D0E1400] [cid:image003.png@01D4B883.0D0E1400] John Irwin Quick Response Fire Protection “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” – Benjamin Franklin From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 10:30 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Car Lifts Whether the lift has a catch pan below the car or not makes no difference. In these installations you can assume the lift is elevated since some people with one car don’t like to drive up and down the ramps. Or the lift is elevated because there is a car parked below. In the case of the lift being in the upper position regardless of whether or not there is a car on it, it becomes an obstruction to overhead sprinklers. A fire originating in the car below can grow without intervention from sprinklers until it involves the upper car. There are videos on-line of cars in this scenario where when the fire starts in the lower car, it automatically spreads to the upper car. Overhead sprinklers at that point can be easily overwhelmed. Do a Google search for: BRE Fire and Security Client Report number 256618 It’s some interesting reading regarding car stacker fire protection testing. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jacobs.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=MCRILeqcerKLF1vrtxUtzydZazyv4tRmS6-zZMBM-58&s=YScItXRO16aRTGqVLPUqdHZxJeE_jFtlRPYcIHIev7E&e=> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of å... .... Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 7:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Car Lifts Use common sense. There is guidance on all scenarios is not sorted yet. If the lift plate on which the car rests has lots of openings ( ~ 50% is the line in the sand for racking), then overhead-only should be good. If the car rests on a solid plate to keep oil off what is underneath... I would find a way and a place to put a sidewall under the plate, if it were my condo/garage/car lift. Scot Deal Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering gms: +420 606 872 129 (GMT+1) On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 12:14 PM Mike Stossel <m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote: NFPA 13, 2016 now gives us guidance and tells us to protect the area as Extra Hazard Group II with an overhead system only. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 6:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Car Lifts Currently working on a high end condo development. The owners have individual garages with an option to have a lift installed so that they can get an additional car in. I am sure you know where this is going … sprinklers under the lift or no? I don’t know of any code references that directly address this situation. What say you? John Irwin “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” – Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=OgZOSER8c1RLeytEexU279Q2qk0jVwkrOdYe5iSi-kk&r=_w721WvezJkWUVteY4FMhecHAoDqOn85ooHi6vIkMag&m=Jo1e1qwt0uyly3BHItLe8ixCVfeOXBmU0-rYWHYpcxA&s=RFnlkSZzkmufTrLrMwRx52RSYgySh3toqGOT6orCUqc&e=> ________________________________ NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. 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