I hope then when you combine what Ed Kramer and David Blackwell provided someone sees reason.
Nick Maneen, SET c 704.791.7789 From: Kyle.Montgomery [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 3:27 PM To: Nick Maneen Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Cane Detection Well, the building is 17 stories with two or more stairs on each level. So there’s over 40 hose valves. It will end up costing way more than a hundred bucks to satisfy the requirement they are proposing, regardless of the method we choose. From: Nick Maneen [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 1:01 PM To: Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Cane Detection I have only been asked to do something around standpipes in the last three years and both occasions they were in the path of egress. It seems to me that if you are tucked into the corner and out of the way of normal travel, someone is being a little over zealous with their interpretation. As far as your next course of action, you have options. I am all for fighting the fight and standing up for yourself that these valves are outside the path of egress, therefore the detection is not required. Then if you discover you are talking to a wall, ask yourself if you would take a client out and spend $100 on dinner to secure future relationships and work? Would you spend $100 on this GC, roll your eyes at the inspector, and move on to the next project? My view on this is completely determined on the dollar amount spent. I can think of all kinds of different scenarios where I would dig my heels in and not budge, but I don’t think this is one. We recently gave a GC a case of escutcheons for free because the painter messed up the outer ring on dozens of heads and instead of going for the back charge to change them out, we went for the relationship. Nick Maneen, SET c 704.791.7789 From: Kyle.Montgomery [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 2:40 PM To: Nick Maneen Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Cane Detection Agreed, but the hose valve protrudes more than 4”. And unless we’re the only ones not privy to some kind of “micro hose valve” I’m pretty sure every standpipe installation in existence would have this same issue. Which is why I’m thinking there must be something I’m missing. -Kyle M From: Nick Maneen [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 12:36 PM To: Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Cane Detection Sorry for the incomplete email. It just went ahead and sent... Anyway, in my experience, a piece of pipe on a floor flange under the standpipe should work. It seems to follow the illustration David Blackwell sent. On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 2:28 PM Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> wrote: Nick, I wasn’t suggesting that bollards would be necessary, I was just comparing them as an example of something that may be required to go along with a sprinkler/standpipe system that typically would be provided “by others”. One of my issues right now is that the GC is siding with the AHJ and just saying “Yep, we need it, you need to provide it, no extra money.” The problem we have is that the hose valves protrude more than 4” from the standpipe, so we’re being told it is required. But I’m pretty sure every hose valve on every standpipe in existence does this, so how has this never been an issue for us before? -Kyle M From: Nick Maneen [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 12:19 PM To: [email protected] Cc: Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Cane Detection I have been asked to turn the valves so they don't protrude further from the wall than the standpipe does (leaving clearance for firefighter use) and run the standpipe down to the floor so the cane can find the bottom of the pipe. I have had an AHJ accept a piece of 1" that does from the bottom of the standpipe to the cap on the 4" to act as the detection. I don't think bollards would be required or at least they haven't been around here in North Carolina yet. On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 12:40 PM Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> wrote: All, I’m running into some issues on a project where the AHJ is asking for “Cane Detection”. For those of you who may not be familiar with the term, the short answer is that cane detection is required for objects that protrude into the circulation path so that a blind/visually impaired person can detect the presence of the object with his/her cane and therefore not bump into it. It’s required for objects that protrude more than 4” from the wall, and are located within a height range of 27”-80”; objects higher than 80” are above the required headroom clearance, and objects lower than 27” are within the “cane sweep” and thus will be detected. (Just Google “Cane Detection” for more information) I understand the need for this, but am uncertain of all the requirements. Here’s our situation: We don’t need the detection for the standpipe itself (or the drain) because that continues through the floor and can be detected by the cane. However, the hose valves protrude more than 4” from the standpipe, and are above 27”, so we’re being told that we need it for the hose valves. So, I’ve got two questions: 1. Is the code being applied the correct way? Have any of you run into this and are the any exceptions for standpipes or life safety equipment? I’m wondering how this hasn’t been a problem for us many times before if this is the correct interpretation of the code. 2. If this IS the correct requirement, should the installation of cane detection fall to the fire sprinkler subcontractor? I mean, we’re not typically responsible for installing bollards to protect risers in warehouses and similar. I’m interested to hear the forum’s thoughts and experiences. Thanks for your help. Kyle Montgomery cid:[email protected] Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. 21605 N. Central Ave. Phoenix, AZ 85024 Direct: 623.580.7820 Cell: 602.763.4736 [email protected] _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=ZbncDeKd4kt8sHgJUrCq0Fsv718COPm03mwxIoyBeCw&s=Yo7qU21orIb76JaDUEbO9Tvxv0-3PcDvVcQnXEh3S0w&e=> -- Nick Maneen Estimator 2553 South Fayetteville Street Asheboro, NC 27205 P 336-625-2304 F 336-625-4649 C 704-791-7789 -- Nick Maneen Estimator 2553 South Fayetteville Street Asheboro, NC 27205 P 336-625-2304 F 336-625-4649 C 704-791-7789
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