The commentary in the 2016 edition of the 13R handbook states that you don't include the demand for the other buildings. You only include the demand of the building being calculated.
Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET Engineering Manager MFP Design 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com www.mfpdesign.com Send large files to us via: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0 LinkedIn: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0 “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” Need/Want a faster way to check material pricing? Build a material quote? Check availability ? Searching for an invoice? *If you do not already have an account with ferguson.com, click https://www.ferguson.com/account-registration to register.* **Have a Ferguson account? Download the Ferguson app for on-the-go access to your favorite ferguson.com features. http://fergusoncommunications.us.newsweaver.com/hq7bgesq7f/1qtklpp37l9byeftyuoy12/external?email=true&a=6&p=2591775&t=517003 or http://fergusoncommunications.us.newsweaver.com/hq7bgesq7f/n1gewi5ud95byeftyuoy12/external?email=true&a=6&p=2591775&t=517003** From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 10:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Ron Greenman <rongreen...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Domestic Demands 13R My understanding of this is that the complex would have had a total fire flow and domestic flow calculated into the main loop by the Civil Engineer (his job) and the complex loop is tied into the city grid at two points. Then only dead ends need to be calculated with the domestic being added at the junction/split with the domestic and then out to the loop. Ron Greenman mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 9:03 AM Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum < mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > It is a new complex. I agree with #1 for sure. #2, while I see the > logic, it just seems like that is way overkill for a project. Including a > 2500 gpm domestic demand in a site loop really seems excessive. If it were > a 13 system, you would include a 100 gpm and wouldn't even consider the > other buildings on the site. That is where the rationale of including all > seems to escape. > > Again, we have AHJ's requesting both ways. I am wondering how others > handle it and what you have run up against. > > > Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET > Engineering Manager > MFP Design > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 > NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 > mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com > http://www.mfpdesign.com > > Send large files to us via: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0 > LinkedIn: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0 > > “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low > price is forgotten.” > > Need/Want a faster way to check material pricing? Build a material > quote? Check availability ? Searching for an invoice? > *If you do not already have an account with ferguson.com, click > https://www.ferguson.com/account-registration to register.* > **Have a Ferguson account? Download the Ferguson app for on-the-go access > to your favorite ferguson.com features. > http://fergusoncommunications.us.newsweaver.com/hq7bgesq7f/1qtklpp37l9byeftyuoy12/external?email=true&a=6&p=2591775&t=517003 > or > http://fergusoncommunications.us.newsweaver.com/hq7bgesq7f/n1gewi5ud95byeftyuoy12/external?email=true&a=6&p=2591775&t=517003** > > From: Hinson, Ryan <mailto:rhin...@burnsmcd.com> > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 9:59 AM > To: mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: Travis Mack <mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com> > Subject: RE: Domestic Demands 13R > > Is this entire complex brand new or existing? Your answer will determine > mine: > 1. Taking a water flow test on an existing looped water main supplying > both FW and domestic demands already accounts for the domestic demands of > the other buildings, no? On the single main feeding all the way into the > building in question, one only needs to include the domestic demand for > that building where the domestic is not provided with a valve preventing > domestic flow in the event of a sprinkler activation therein. NFPA 13R > (2016) Section 9.6 states, "Domestic Demand. Domestic demand for the > building being calculated shall be included as part of the overall system > demand for systems with common domestic/fire mains where no provisions are > made to prevent the domestic waterflow upon sprinkler system activation." > Key words here are "for the building" and "where no provisions are made". > 2. If the entire loop system supplying both FW and domestic demands is new > and yet to be completed, then provision must be made for anticipated > domestic flows of the other, yet to be occupied buildings as you indicate. > > My too scents, > > Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell > Senior Fire Protection Engineer > O 952-656-3662 \ M 763-688-4045 \ F 952-229-2923 > mailto:rhin...@burnsmcd.com \ burnsmcd.com > 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 500 \ Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN 55437 > *Registered in: LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT > **NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum <mailto: > mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Travis > Mack > via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 10:34 AM > To: mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com > Subject: Domestic Demands 13R > > Forumites: > > Per 13R 9.6 it requires the domestic demand for the building being > calculated to be added to the fire sprinkler system. This is generally not > an issue. If you have a complex of say 20 buildings on site that is > supplied by a common water line serving both domestic and fire, are you > required to include the domestic demand for each building on the site water > main. > > For example, if I have a project with a 8" main going through the complex, > and 4" lead-ins to each building, with a domestic demand of 125 gpm for > each building, how are you doing the domestic demand? With the domestic / > fire split in the building, it is required to include the 125 gpm demand in > addition to the fire sprinkler system demand in the 4" line. Are you > including the other 2375 gpm (19 additional buildings at 125 gpm domestic > allowance), in your calculations back to the city main? > > This seems quite excessive. If it were a 13 system, you would have similar > flows and a 100 gpm hose allowance. There is no requirement in this example > to include the domestic in a 13 system. But, if you are required to include > the additional 2375 gpm, that could be quite taxing on the site supply. > Again, how is everyone handling it. > > We have seen AHJ's take both approaches on this. > > > Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET > Engineering Manager > MFP Design > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 > NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 > mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com > > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mfpdesign.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7C89a4ad9720f746a0dbc608d88728d480%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C1%7C637407956725504278%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=YqfQS1VxYVmcEYutfsPngkMSPGgV6GIA2PKjVSDvJ8k%3D&reserved=0 > > Send large files to us via: > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7C89a4ad9720f746a0dbc608d88728d480%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C1%7C637407956725504278%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=WpWoNWJzRsJF8BgtKXFVqL5RCNM4adfmhPnvGj9thas%3D&reserved=0 > LinkedIn: > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7C89a4ad9720f746a0dbc608d88728d480%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C1%7C637407956725504278%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=BPQIg68Vjjdkum%2BOfbx75ngs%2FfnEuID%2B5VB%2FEWlNgyg%3D&reserved=0 > > “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low > price is forgotten.” > > Need/Want a faster way to check material pricing? Build a material > quote? Check availability ? Searching for an invoice? > *If you do not already have an account with ferguson.com, click here to > register.* **Have a Ferguson account? Download the Ferguson app for > on-the-go access to your favorite ferguson.com features. Apple iOS > devices or Android devices** > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org&data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7C89a4ad9720f746a0dbc608d88728d480%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C1%7C637407956725514278%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=7ea%2BF7mHUdDSBY6lN3U99VHDjNuy4UYz6F7XpR6XjkI%3D&reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
