John, I'm also in Florida and we struggle with the same when it comes to sign and seal. Project engineer of record doesn't want to sign our shops, AHJ demands signed shops ... always a point of contention.
In your instance, I agree with you and Buddy that technically you are doing a like for like replacement and no seal should be needed. However, I think this stretches the definition of a repair to its limits. There are some good FPEs around that you can email your plans to for review and seal and the cost isn't that great. (I can recommend one if you email me). Seems like your client has to choose between gearing up for a fight or writing a little check. John Irwin Director of Construction Quick Response Fire Protection Cell: 727-282-9243 jir...@quickresponsefl.com “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” – Benjamin Franklin -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of 321 via Sprinklerforum Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2021 2:54 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: 321 <tcf...@bellsouth.net> Subject: Shop Drawings vs Design Drawings in Florida This is primarily for our Florida Fire Sprinkler Contractors but others feel free to comment. We have a repair job in an Oceanfront Condo Parking Garage that requires the complete replacement of all the original Pipe, Fittings, Hangers and Sprinklers due to corrosion. The system was installed in 1988 using black pipe, fittings and hangers. Our scope is to remove and replace the entire corroded system and replace it in it's original designed position relative to head location and type (K Factor/Temp Rating), spacing, elevation, etc. The piping is to be exactly the same size and located in the same position with the only difference being that all the new pipe, fittings and hangers will be galvanized and the new heads will be corrosion resistant. There are about 275 heads in this job. There are no building drawings or Fire Sprinkler Drawings available for this project since the AHJ doesn't keep records and the companies that installed the work in 1988 no longer exist. To facilitate our installation, and at the request of the Local Fire Department, we physically measured the garage and existing system and produced a "Shop Drawing" for our permit application. We noted on the plans that this was a "Repair of an existing system, did not add, alter or relocate the position of any of the existing equipment and was a like for like replacement of an existing severely corroded system". Our State Statutes states : 633.322 County, municipal, and special district powers; effect of ch. 75-240.—(1) This chapter does not limit the power of a municipality, county, or special district to regulate the quality and character of work performed by contractors through a system of permits, fees, and inspections which are designed to secure compliance with, and aid in the implementation of, state and local building laws or to enforce other local laws for the protection of the public health and safety.(2) This chapter does not limit the power of a municipality, county, or special district to adopt any system of permits requiring submission to and approval by the municipality, county, or special district of plans and specifications for work to be performed by contractors before commencement of the work, except that a municipality, county, or special district may not require a fire protection system contractor’s shop drawings to be sealed by a professional engineer.(3) An official authorized to issue building or other related permits shall ascertain that the applicant contractor is duly certified before issuing the permit. The evidence shall consist only of the exhibition to him or her of evidence of current certification.(4) The State Fire Marshal shall inform each county and municipal building department, prior to November 1 of each year, of the names of the certified contractors and the type of certificate held. We submitted our Shop Drawings of the System along with our Permit Application. The Local Fire Plans Review people have rejected our application stating that they require "Signed and Sealed Drawings for all "New Designs" of 49 or more Heads. I called and explained that this is not a "New Design" and that these are "Shop Drawings" to be used as an installation guide for our crews to "Accurately Reproduce the existing system as it is." We are NOT adding, relocating or deleting any sprinklers with this work. They won't budge. Our Association Director (Former State Fire Marshal Buddy DeWar) agrees with me on this as does the Southern District Deputy State Fire Marshal. My owner /client will not pay for the added expense of having a PE come in, review the systems in this 35 year old building and "Sign and Seal" these plans...nor should he. Have any of you contractors in Florida run up against this recently? Your thoughts and suggestions welcome. John W. FarabeeFire Protection ManagerCertified Lower Keys Plumbing and FireKey West, Florida 561-707-5150 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
