For what it is worth, we went in a different direction. We upsized the jockey pump to 50gpm to handle the flow of one sprinkler (5.6 X square root of 100) so that testing of the sprinkler switches can be done without the booster pump operating (we often have lots of switches supplied by the pump). This allows a lot of switches to be tested without having to shut down the pump, which would require instituting impairment procedures. We also generally use manual shut down for the booster pump upon activation of the pump running alarm and staff who would respond to the pump don't have to be involved during switch testing with this arrangement.
Pete Larrimer VA -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of BF Blake via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 3:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: BF Blake <bfbl...@hotmail.com> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fire Pump Shutdown Copy. Was installed/designed to 2013 Edition. Central station reporting is not operational. Thanks for all. Byron ________________________________ From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> on behalf of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 11:23 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: John Denhardt <jdenha...@firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Fire Pump Shutdown Keep in mind the following from UFC 3-600-01 (8 AUGUST 2016, CHANGE 5, 14 SEPTEMBER 2020) 9.5.3 Pump Start and Shutdown. 9.5.3.1 Fire pumps must be arranged to start automatically. 9.5.3.2 Fire pumps must be arranged to automatically shut down after reaching the stop pressure and the expiration of \3\the minimum run time determined by NFPA 20/3/. Stop pressure must be at least 5 psi below maximum churn pressure at the lowest available static pressure. Note: The lowest available static pressure should be utilized in determining churn pressure so that the stop pressure can be achieved with low pressure. The 5 psi differential is used to allow for gauge error.\2\ 9.5.3 /2/Fire pump activation (run) must transmit an alarm condition to the Installation receiving station, or remote receiving station, but not activate the Facility notification appliance While I understand what the above states, my personal opinion is to have the fire pump operating anytime a sprinkler is operating. We do not want to short cycle the fire pump. My suggestion is always for manual shut-down unless the site is unmanned and response to the site would take considerable time.. A properly designed and maintained fire pump system can operate at churn or near churn conditions for a lengthy time with no issues. We all know fire pump systems are maintained in full accordance with NFPA 25 and the manufacturer's recommendations. *The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be considered the official position of the **AFSA, and/or NFPA or its technical committees.**AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering services, and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as such.* Thanks, John John August Denhardt, PE *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* *American Fire Sprinkler Association* m: p: 301-343-1457 214-349-5965 ext 121 w: firesprinkler.org <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Ffiresprinkler.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C637728640517024173%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4hbQHFn9YeX0dIc%2BpnuDhI%2FF8VZ%2BuOKy4lS%2BEps5YeU%3D&reserved=0> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fafsa%2Fstatus%2F1039528345367732224&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C637728640517024173%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=YSJggNp%2FvC7udgb4OBJXGYNCwxHSgIdla%2B0jn3V%2F%2FH4%3D&reserved=0> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fcompany%2Famerican-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C637728640517024173%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=EWdjjWzFysZjrSl0gu3yQPdXUn9MwyCIrQu4U7IFEoY%3D&reserved=0> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.instagram.com%2Ffiresprinklerorg%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C637728640517024173%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=oVAv1fuHAtsv8VXnbSwHc%2B2j2I%2BX0ZlrjxTLOJt56W8%3D&reserved=0> *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.* *Are you a member with a technical question? * Don't forget one of the most valuable resources that American Fire Sprinkler Association provides is technical reviews from our Engineering & Technical Services Department. 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On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 3:13 PM BF Blake via Sprinklerforum < sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > Thanks John, 100% with you. > Byron, Poland. > > > ________________________________ > From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > on behalf of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum < > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 11:11 PM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org < > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > Cc: John Denhardt <jdenha...@firesprinkler.org> > Subject: Re: Fire Pump Shutdown > > To me, the intent is to have the fire pump operating anytime a > sprinkler is operating. We do not want to short cycle the fire pump. > My suggestion is always for manual shut-down unless the site is > unmanned and response to Technical he site would take considerable > time.. A properly designed and maintained fire pump system can > operate at churn or near churn conditions for a lengthy time with no issues. > > *The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal > interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing > Committee Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the > AFSA assumes no liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and > they are not to be considered the official position of the **AFSA, > and/or NFPA or its technical committees.**AFSA cannot provide design > or consulting engineering services, and this opinion should therefore > not be considered, nor relied upon, as such.* > > Thanks, > John > > John August Denhardt, PE > *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* > > *American Fire Sprinkler Association* > m: p: 301-343-1457 > 214-349-5965 ext 121 > w: firesprinkler.org > < > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > facebook.com%2Ffiresprinkler.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b > 4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C6377 > 28640517024173%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2l > uMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4hbQHFn9YeX0dIc%2 > BpnuDhI%2FF8VZ%2BuOKy4lS%2BEps5YeU%3D&reserved=0 > > > < > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwit > ter.com%2Fafsa%2Fstatus%2F1039528345367732224&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce7 > 7f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0% > 7C0%7C637728640517024173%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL > CJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=YSJggNp > %2FvC7udgb4OBJXGYNCwxHSgIdla%2B0jn3V%2F%2FH4%3D&reserved=0 > > > < > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > linkedin.com%2Fcompany%2Famerican-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-%2F& > amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf4 > 5ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C637728640517024173%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb > 3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D% > 7C3000&sdata=EWdjjWzFysZjrSl0gu3yQPdXUn9MwyCIrQu4U7IFEoY%3D&re > served=0 > > > < > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > instagram.com%2Ffiresprinklerorg%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b > 4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C6377 > 28640517024173%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2l > uMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=oVAv1fuHAtsv8VXnb > SwHc%2B2j2I%2BX0ZlrjxTLOJt56W8%3D&reserved=0 > > > > *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.* > > > *Are you a member with a technical question? * > > Don't forget one of the most valuable resources that American Fire > Sprinkler Association provides is technical reviews from our > Engineering & Technical Services Department. It's like having an FPE > on your staff. Visit > > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.f > iresprinkler.org%2Finterp&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08 > d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C63772864051702 > 4173%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBT > iI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=CZLoiuIGHeyOmtS6LZwg7T4EBT1 > OL39bqq8vmmqS3LM%3D&reserved=0 > < > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > firesprinkler.org%2FWWW%2FContacts%2FSign_In.aspx%3FWebsiteKey%3D3dff2 > 2a3-0306-479c-bccc-7aa1986c8ada%26LoginRedirect%3Dtrue%26returnurl%3D% > 2FWWW%2FTechnical_Services%2FInformal_Interpretations%2FWWW%2FInformal > _Interpret%2FMember_View.aspx%3Fhkey%3D8023e65f-a2ad-4465-9920-0f9313a > 07324&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b2 > 3abaf45ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C637728640517024173%7CUnknown%7CTWF > pbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6M > n0%3D%7C3000&sdata=6sIc%2FvF3CNOcknTm47sVubYFAKT0WH2hUynTv8%2FF2AY > %3D&reserved=0 > > > to > submit a question today! > > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 2:27 PM BF Blake via Sprinklerforum < > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > > > Greetings Forum Members > > > > Do we believe it is the intent of NFPA 20 TC is for 10 minute > > automatic shut down (when enabled) of fire pumps to apply only during churn > > (e.g. > > dead head, closed loop, testing) conditions or to any condition to > include > > sprinkler flow (e.g. 1/2" 5.6K ITC flow)? > > > > Is the intent to protect the fire pump from "burn out"? Is the > > intent to run pumps to failure (destruction) or is the intent, with > > 10 minute auto shut down, where permitted, to attempt to preserve the pump? > > > > Thanks > > > > Byron > > NATO Facility > > UFC Criteria 03-600-01 (2013) Applicable Słupsk, Pomorskie, Poland > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > > > > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists > .firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org&a > mp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45 > ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C637728640517034132%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3 > d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7 > C3000&sdata=Y1iTfH2ifJnALm%2FwsFqNs%2BujWt6N4H2p2he4xP74xaA%3D& > ;reserved=0 > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists > .firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org&a > mp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45 > ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C637728640517034132%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3 > d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7 > C3000&sdata=Y1iTfH2ifJnALm%2FwsFqNs%2BujWt6N4H2p2he4xP74xaA%3D& > ;reserved=0 _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists > .firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org&a > mp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45 > ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C637728640517034132%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3 > d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7 > C3000&sdata=Y1iTfH2ifJnALm%2FwsFqNs%2BujWt6N4H2p2he4xP74xaA%3D& > ;reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C637728640517034132%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Y1iTfH2ifJnALm%2FwsFqNs%2BujWt6N4H2p2he4xP74xaA%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce77f82920c1b4121c81a08d9aad1d7b5%7Ce95f1b23abaf45ee821db7ab251ab3bf%7C0%7C0%7C637728640517034132%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Y1iTfH2ifJnALm%2FwsFqNs%2BujWt6N4H2p2he4xP74xaA%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
