"Why would one want a fire separation?" and this is a fire protection forum? Depending on egress capacity, combustible finishes, kitchen fuel load, future resale value: sprinkler the entire occupancy. Marginal cost to finish the entire occupancy is minimal once the water source and supply and riser are paid for.
Sprinkler just the kitchen with 15 ft extension at line of separation, if want risk-based protection. If Code allows no sprinklers (because someone judges-with-uncertainty) that the kitchen is not an incidental occupancy to the dining area, then document your reasons (regardless of the strategic decision), and go naked regarding effective-fire-suppression. Water curtains are of marginal performance efficiency. If kitchen fire involves oils, a spill fire will flow through the curtain. If kitchen pantry flashes over, toxic CO will flow right through the water curtain. My guess is there SHOULD be no problem with egress, but that should be documented.... Scot Deal Excelsior Fire Engineering gms: +420 606 872 129 La semplicità è la sofisticatezza finale - da vince On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 4:05 PM Sergio Braga <sergioweling...@gmail.com> wrote: > Anthony, > > The 2014 New York City Building Code (this is the current BC in NYC) is an > amended version of the 2009 IBC. I chose to use the 1968 NYC BC because it > was more suitable for this job (nothing related to fire protection). > However, regardless of the BC version (2014 or 1968), the requirements and > exceptions are the same in this case. Here is a link for the 2014 BC > section with similar requirements I quoted before: > https://up.codes/viewer/new_york_city/nyc-building-code-2014/chapter/5/general-building-heights-and-areas-separation-of-occupancies#508.4.4 > . > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:57 PM Anthony Carrizosa < > anth...@archerconstruction.com> wrote: > >> It’s in the 2020 Building code of New York State? >> >> >> >> >> https://up.codes/viewer/new_york/ibc-2018/chapter/3/occupancy-classification-and-use#303.3 >> >> >> >> and Chapter 27 is Electrical ? >> >> >> >> I am not sure why they are directing you to a 1968 code when the latest >> Building code has the reference to the 2018 IBC. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Sergio Braga <sergioweling...@gmail.com> >> *Sent:* Monday, March 21, 2022 2:53 PM >> *To:* Anthony Carrizosa <anth...@archerconstruction.com> >> *Cc:* Brett Peters <br...@proudline.ca>; >> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Curtain Hydraulic Calculation >> >> >> >> Anthony, >> >> >> >> I am in NYC, the NYC BC doesn't include the commercial kitchens in the >> same classification. Actually, there is a specific section dealing with >> that: >> >> >> >> *§27-339 Nonresidential kitchens need not be separated by fire >> separations from adjoining dining spaces, provided:* >> >> · *The cooking equipment is vented directly to the outdoors, and* >> >> · *Draft curtain of noncombustible material, at least >> twenty-four inches down from the ceiling, is provided to separate the >> cooking facilities from dining spaces, and* >> >> · *Sprinkler heads constructed in accordance with the provisions >> of subchapter seventeen of this chapter, are provided on the cooking >> facilities side of the curtain, or any opening between the kitchen and >> dining space, located within twenty-four inches of the curtain or opening, >> and spaced not more than forty-eight inches on centers if the opening is >> more than sixty inches wide. When fire separations are provided >> double-action doors may be permitted.* >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:46 PM Anthony Carrizosa < >> anth...@archerconstruction.com> wrote: >> >> Segio, >> >> Why do you need a fire separation? Both the dinning and Kitchen areas are >> the same Occupancy >> >> *IBC-2018. 303.3 Assembly Group A-2. Group A-2 occupancy includes* >> >> *assembly uses intended for food and/or drink consumption* >> >> *including, but not limited to:* >> >> *………….* >> >> *Restaurants, cafeterias and similar dining facilities* >> >> *(including associated commercial kitchens) * >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Brett Peters <br...@proudline.ca> >> *Sent:* Monday, March 21, 2022 2:24 PM >> *To:* Sergio Braga <sergioweling...@gmail.com> >> *Cc:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Curtain Hydraulic Calculation >> >> >> >> I don't think any of these codes would apply to this situation as a water >> curtain as described above is within a sprinklered area, I think in this >> situation you would not be installing a water curtain, this would be more >> of a fire separation, IMO this is a bit outside of NFPA 13 and someone >> needs to determine an amount of water required to create the fire >> separation. The water curtain requires 3gpm per lineal foot but as a fire >> separation this may need to be increased. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Brett Peters >> >> General Manager Installation & Design >> >> Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd. >> >> br...@proudline.ca >> >> 780 490 7602 office ext 202 >> >> 780 490 7605 fax >> >> 780 777 0568 cell >> >> 780 718 2676 24h >> >> Visit us at www.proudline.ca >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.proudline.ca%2f&c=E,1,c9cFbeWoT8oOrEY2LfQNnDEXEgaDIvxQpjZ0rTcGoQXac4DMpRB5G81QBQo-cpUTlzRZm7AGHRMMrQg3fD2DC4jHTm38ZHbrOa5rpNrQ5w,,&typo=1> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 3:09 PM Sergio Braga <sergioweling...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> We have a small restaurant project where we are designing a water curtain >> for fire separation of open kitchen and dining area. The building is not >> required to be fully sprinklered. >> >> Regarding the hydraulic calculations for the water curtain, I will >> mention the applicable code sections: >> >> NFPA13-2007: 11.2.3 Water Demand Requirements - Hydraulic Calculation >> Methods. >> 11.2.3.1.1 The water supply for sprinklers shall be determined only from >> one of the following: >> (1) Density/area curves of Figure 11.2.3.1.1 in accordance with the >> method of 11.2.3.2 >> (2) On the basis of the room design method in accordance with 11.2.3.3 >> (3) Special design areas in accordance with 11.2.3.4, at the discretion >> of the designer >> >> NFPA13-2007: 11.3 Special Design Approaches. >> NFPA13-2007: 11.3.3 Water Curtains. >> 11.3.3.1 Sprinklers in a water curtain such as described in 8.15.4 or >> 8.15.16.2 shall be hydraulically designed to provide a discharge of 3 gpm >> per lineal foot (37 L/min per lineal meter) of water curtain, with no >> sprinklers discharging less than 15 gpm (56.8 L/min) . >> 11.3.3.2 For water curtains employing automatic sprinklers, the number of >> sprinklers calculated in this water curtain shall be the number in the >> length corresponding to the length parallel to the branch lines in the area >> determined by 22.4.4.1.1. >> 11.3.3.3 If a single fire can be expected to operate sprinklers within >> the water curtain and within the design area of a hydraulically calculated >> system, the water supply to the water curtain shall be added to the water >> demand of the hydraulic calculations and shall be balanced to the >> calculated area demand. >> 11.3.3.4 Hydraulic design calculations shall include a design area >> selected to include ceiling sprinklers adjacent to the water curtain. >> >> If I perform the hydraulic calculation per density/area method the >> existing water supply system will not be capable of meeting the demand. >> However, I believe I am going to the wrong direction since this is only a >> water curtain system, and I think the density and area of sprinkler >> operation from FIGURE 11.2.3.1.1 is not applicable. >> >> What do you guys think? >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> SprinklerForum mailing list: >> >> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.firesprinkler.org%2flist%2fsprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org&c=E,1,9wVu0xjQQnHM7dVRG_ccF1fw-_q0cD9uJjOd7slC4DnOF1Kl6vCSDYJTZtD_dicl4HfFtvYMJ0qKmtmcqdgob9XlgD3gxX-7IHX5gHYy7EOUwwr7m64,&typo=1> >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org >> >> > _________________________________________________________ > SprinklerForum mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to > sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
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