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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Chimneys (dave kuchanny)
2. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 2, Issue 26 (dave kuchanny)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 10:21:04 +0000 (GMT)
From: dave kuchanny <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi Crispin / stovers
I've avidly followed your links, posts and advice for some time now,
first time to write anything myself.
What about the zero cost stoves with chimneys? Surely these are
amongst the most desirable in terms of economic effect to IAP and
improved efficiency.
I have recently been running a study in Zambia on alleviation of IAP
from cookingstoves using a participatory approach, not the 'top
down' imposition of technologies. I did however showcase and example
improved cookstove, promoted through GTZ in Uganda, the mud rocket
stove
called (I believe) the Lorena. This adobe (anthill soil and grass)
based stove uses banana stem as formwork to build the fire box and
chimney etc around, and has no financial costs to produce. The
construction manual is straightforward, with simple diagrams, and
with a 2 pot stove like this one, it
is appropriate to the cooking dynamic of the region. It also comes
with cleaning and maintenance guidelines to stop the sooting of the
chimney becoming an issue.
The details are found here;
http://www.energyandminerals.go.ug/pdf/gtz/HOUSEHOLD%20Stoves%20Construction%20Manual%20August%202008.pdf
There are 2 issues I am aware of, but am looking for greater
knowledge and further insights from the group.
1.? The stove cooks with small pieces of timber, but the local
vernacular is split approximatley 50:50 wood/charcoal, so this will
be inconvenient or completely inappropriate to some. Is it possible
to use charcoal in stoves such as this, and what changes would be
needed?
2.? I am aware of the improvement gained by adding insulation. This
stove has large mass, insulative in part by the grass in the anthill
soil 'mud' body. A fired clay insert that followed the heat pathway
through the stove, in place
of the banana stem formwork, would mean that initial heat would
transfer more directly to the pot, not into the stove body, and
increase fuel efficiency. Are there no cost methods to achieve this?
What if there are no kilns nearby? Can we cerate this improved
insulation by, say, adding vermiculite (not sure if locally
available) or other material in larger ammount to the adobe mix
surrounding the banana stems? Ash perhaps? Would we then need a
stronger binder than the clay soils, like lime?
I am working towards briquette manufacture, more improved stoves and
biochar potentials in the area but am looking to stagger
introduction of these (probable) improvements. There are at present
almost no improved stoves and extremely poor charcoaling and wood
production methodologies, with little understanding of IAP andthe
efferct of smoke. It makes sense for the transition to be gradual
and community owned for there to be lasting adoption.
Any advice,
contacts or cautions would be greatly appreciated.
Dave
--- On Mon, 1/11/10, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
<[email protected]> wrote:
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" <[email protected]
>
Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 3:04
Dear Joyce ?There are two answers to your question. The first is
that CO is not all that big a problem for most people. Yes it is a
problem in certain places, Johannesburg and the col burning Highveld
regions for example, but smoke exposure is a much larger concern in
my experience. ?The second is that chimneys are relative expensive.
If you put a chimney on a stove that is not very clean burning, it
quickly gets clogged and is a
maintenance problem.? An example of this is the stoves made from clay
and sand in Kenya. In the high regions (tea estates especially)
there are ?fuel efficient stoves? promoted by the tea estate
corporations as a beneficial idea. They have chimneys but are pretty
dreadful is terms of combustion efficiency. In as little as 3 months
a 3 inch diameter chimney gets clogged with condensed, boiled
biomass vapours. The stove have chimneys but don?t really save much
fuel and waste a great deal of it by simply not burning the gases. ?
So chimney are not as easy to work with as one would hope. Cleaning
up the combustion is actually the most important if there is nearly
zero money in the community. ?Chimney stoves, in answer to your
question about the effect of putting on a chimney, have to have
pretty good air control or they are not very efficient. ?Attached is
a chart of a coal stove with a chimney attached, and no flue damper
to control the draft. There is really no way for anyone to know how
and when to close or
partially close a damper for optimum efficiency. This is the result
of an open chimney attached to a fairly large fire. The peak burning
rate can be seen by looking for the steepest portion of the brown
line. That is the mass burned during the operation.
?As you can see the initial burn rate is
low so the line is nearly horizontal, then it gets going like crazy
to about 16 kW. Then the coal runs out and the burn rate slows. Then
it is refuelled with a sharp jump up which tapers off in the end
after about 200 minutes. ?The thermal efficiency is the green lines,
The darker one that moves up and down is the instantaneous
efficiency calculated from the temperature of the gases in the
chimney and the excess air at the time. The smoother green line is
the cumulative efficiency, meaning how things have gone so far, all
things considered. Two features are noticeable. The first is that it
is pretty constant at about 65% efficient when the fire is large and
burning at a high rate. The second is that as the fire dies down,
the thermal efficiency drops to zero and
in fact goes negative.
Because it is negative (the fire is actually cooling the room by
throwing more heat up the chimney than it is generating) the average
for the whole burn drops from 60% at minute 100 to 33% at minute
200. That is amazing, eh? ?So putting on a chimney does not
guarantee overall success. The main reason for the poor performance
is excessive draft ? there is simply too much air getting into the
stove, allowing it to operate at a high power level ? too high to be
useful actually. This is followed by a period when the stove cools
the home drawing, as it does, about 50 cubic metres of -35 degree C
air into the house to feed the fire. ?So, chimneys make things a lot
more complicated providing expected results and additional expense.
The expense is not just for the chimney which might cost $5, but
also for a stove that is air tight enough to control the combustion
reasonably and now waste fuel. ?Best regardsCrispin ?++++++++ ?Why
is no one talking about
chimneys that get rid of the CO safely? And doesn?t the addition of
a chimney change the dynamics of any
stove? ?Joyce M [email protected]
Home503-201-9548 Cell503-533-4209 Fax ? ?
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 10:26:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: dave kuchanny <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], Stoves List To Send To
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 2, Issue 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hey,
That study was in 2005, the most recent WHO report said
approximatley 2 million per year, in November 2009.
Find it here
http://content.undp.org/go/cms-service/stream/asset/?
asset_id=2205620 , or go direct to their site
The UNDP/WHO 2009 report, The Energy
Access Situation in Developing Countries, A Review Focusing on the
Least
Developed Countries and Sub-Saharan Africa, can be downloaded from
http://www.undp.org/energy
The problem is that these figures from the WHO are extremely
conservatve, and only relate to direct death caused from cooking
smoke as referenced in multiple independant studies. Primarily this
is pneumonia in children under 5, COPD and lung cancer (especially
with coal). It does not, however, include the related deaths. So,
for example, if your TB is made significantly worse by smoke
inhalation and you subsequently die, this death is not recorede in
absolute terms or in loss of years as a smoke consequence. Other
involved studies are not included in these figures as they are
simply not backed up by enough other studies, there must be 15 - 20
studies shown hence only 3 main related sicknesses. Athsma,
cateracts, still births and perinatal mortality as well as other
respitory and heart issues are all linked by study, but not backed
up enough to have as published figures. See page 48 of the above
paper. Cateracts, for example, will cause significant
loss of welfare in a community, but rarely kill...and so on. The
figure, all inclusive could be as high as 6 million per year, but
that is difficult to prove exactly.
Hope this helps, depressing as it is.
Dave
--- On Sun, 31/10/10, Lloyd Helferty <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Lloyd Helferty <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 2, Issue 26
To: [email protected], "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <[email protected]
>
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010,
20:54
Philip,
? Outdated statistics. Not 1.4 million.? The W.H.O. quotes 1.6
million every year.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs292/en/index.html
Indoor air
pollution and health
Scope of the
problem
"More
than half of the world?s population rely on dung,
wood, crop waste or coal to meet their most basic
energy needs. Cooking and heating with such solid
fuels on open fires or stoves without chimneys
leads
to indoor air pollution...
?Exposure
is particularly high among women and
children, who spend the most time near the
domestic hearth. Every year, indoor air
pollution
is responsible for the death of 1.6
million people - that's one death
every 20 seconds."
Lloyd Helferty, Engineering Technologist
Principal, Biochar Consulting (Canada)
www.biochar-consulting.ca
603-48 Suncrest Blvd, Thornhill, ON, Canada
905-707-8754; 647-886-8754 (cell)
Skype: lloyd.helferty
Steering Committee member, Canadian Biochar Initiative
President, Co-founder & CBI Liaison, Biochar-Ontario
Advisory Committee Member, IBI
http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42237506675
http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario
http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario/
http://grassrootsintelligence.blogspot.com
www.biochar.ca
Biochar Offsets Group: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?
home=&gid=2446475
On 10/31/2010 3:05 PM, Philip Lloyd wrote:
"All,
Where are there studies that document the illness and loss of life
from
cooking over open fires? We all quote the 1.4 million deaths per
year but
what is that information based on? Where is the source
documentation? Is
there information to document improvements from stoves?
Thanks
Tom
T R Miles Technical Consultants, Inc.
[email protected]
www.trmiles.com
www.bioenergylists.org"
It is a world health organisation publication of ~2003, looking at
the
sources of
mortality worldwide.
(Dr)
Philip Lloyd Pr Eng
Industrial & Petrochemical Consultants
IPC House, 54 Alma Road
Rosebank, W Cape 7700
South Africa
Tel/fax/messages +27 (0)21 689 1386
Mobile +27 (0)83 441 5247
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 2, Issue 26
Send Stoves mailing list submissions
to
[email protected]
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
[email protected]
You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents
of Stoves digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Biochar Projects
for Science
Students (Tom Miles)
2. Documenting Health effects of cooking with open fires (Tom Miles)
3. Re: Documenting Health effects of cooking with open fires
(Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
4. Coal Heater (Jeff Davis)
5. Chimneys (Joyce Lockard)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 12:48:50 -0700
From: "Tom Miles" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
<[email protected]>
Subject:
[Stoves] Biochar Projects for Science Students
Message-ID: <006801cb786b$7ad081f0$707185...@com>
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
We need experiments for high school science students to make and use
biochar.
Kelpie and Christa have provided good instructions for small biochar
stoves
for students wanting to learn about biochar:
How to Make the Dome School Biochar stove, Kelpie wilson
http://greenyourhead.typepad.com/files/how-to-make-dome-school-biochar-stove
.pdf
Basic Design Principles of the Pyrolytic TLUD Gasifier Stove in 2010
Bq
Demonstrations, or "How many sausages can you grill in the process
of making
30g of biochar? Christa Roth
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/files/2010%20biochar-bq%20demonstration
%20by%20Christa%20Roth.pdf
What student projects can demonstrate the ability of biochar to
capture
nutrients and retain them for plant growth?
Nutrient capture: are there simple leaching or column tests where
students
can filter a known concentration of fertilizer elements through
samples of
soil with and without biochar and directly measure the concentration
in the
filtrate using something like a specific ion electrode or conductivity
tester e.g. K or nitrates, or heavy metals like Pb, or Cd?
Greenhouse/pot tests: can the students
then test the same media with and
without biochar in pot tests?
A students recently
asked if there is a way that she can measure the amount
of carbon in biochar that
will be available for carbon sequestration. Any
examples or ideas?
Thanks
Tom
T R Miles Technical Consultants, Inc.
www.trmiles.com
www.biochar.bioenergylists.org
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:16:59 -0700
From: "Tom Miles" <[email protected]>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
<[email protected]>
Subject: [Stoves] Documenting Health effects of cooking with open
fires
Message-ID:
<007c01cb786f$6901f4f0$3b05de...@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
All,
Where are there studies that document the illness and loss of
life from
cooking over
open fires? We all quote the 1.4 million deaths per year but
what is that information based on? Where is the source
documentation? Is
there information to document improvements from stoves?
Thanks
Tom
T R Miles Technical Consultants, Inc.
[email protected]
www.trmiles.com
www.bioenergylists.org
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 18:35:20 -0400
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Documenting Health effects of cooking with open
fires
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear
Tom
I am pretty sure the source is Kirk Smith. Another person who is
very up on
the subject is Jostein Nygard [email protected] who has made
calculations for
whole countries including China.
It is possible Steinar Larssen [email protected] is quite au
fait with
backgrounders and even the calculation methods.
Regards
Crispin
Subject: [Stoves] Documenting Health effects of cooking with open
fires
All,
Where are there studies that document the illness and loss of
life from
cooking over open fires? We all quote the 1.4 million deaths per
year but
what is that information based on? Where is the source
documentation? Is
there information to document improvements
from stoves?
Thanks
Tom
T R Miles Technical Consultants, Inc.
[email protected]
www.trmiles.com
www.bioenergylists.org
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 00:55:35
-0400
From: Jeff Davis <[email protected]>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<[email protected]>
Subject: [Stoves] Coal Heater
Message-ID: <1288500935.4409.3.ca...@jeff-laptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Dear Crispin,
Is a coal fired hydronic
heater with flue pipe out of line?
Best regards,
Jeff
On Sat, 2010-10-30 at
07:36 -0400, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
Interesting problem. We need a 2 kW stove for heating an super
insulated ger. There is no such thing at the moment as a clean
burning 2 kW coal stove. I am thinking of trying a fan stove.
r
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:53:32 -0700
From: "Joyce Lockard" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [Stoves] Chimneys
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Why is no one talking about chimneys
that get rid of the CO safely? And
doesn't the addition of a chimney change the dynamics of any stove?
Joyce M Lockard
[email protected]
503-533-4190
Home
503-201-9548 Cell
503-533-4209 Fax
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