"it must be a thursday, (i) never could get the hang of thurdays"
but then i guess this should be left 'til friday :o)
On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 10:37 Europe/London, Andrew Hill wrote:
Maybe he should also drop java and the servlet api while he is at it - after
all you can do all of that stuff in assembly code. How hard is it to
implement a web server? - just listen on the port, send some text back and
forth. Piece of cake. Run a lot faster too without all that unneccesary
overhead the jvm imposes.
<snip>
"application developers", who are basically scripters (not OO developers)
</snip>
Oh we are just scripters are we? I suppose its true - real programmers write
straight to the metal - none of this high level language stuff... design
patterns are for quiche eaters...
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html
http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/rp.html
Ok thats probably enough since its still only Thursday... ;->
-----Original Message----- From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 29 May 2003 17:10 To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Justifying Struts
I'm sorry man, you're reservations are mostly wrong. one thing you have to bare in mind is that we're not all as clever as you, in fact i'd argue that I'm very stupid and many people are as equally stupid.
If you've managed to maintain an MVC pattern using model 1 techniques what are you doing researching struts?
Model 1 techniques were also attempts to encourage MVC but html'ists who are keen to overcome their programmer envy would break the pattern, if you don't have this problem and your current development practices don't break this pattern you don't need struts then do you? I'm interested in how many times "oh that's easy" is said in your team, how much unaccounted time pops up on your projects especially when completing "easy" tasks.
taglibs have value in the real world and the struts taglibs more so, the overhead isn't that great and are far less than the cognitive overheads that some ropey scriptlet writing can cause. while i understand your preference for scriptlets, putting your team forward as the sole inhabitance of the "real world" sounds a little incongruous with the model 1 utopia that you're all living in.
Anyway there are numerous threads like yours on this group that have been posted over the last few weeks. take a read. i'd argue that your position requires justification not struts.
cheers mark
I've heard aboutStruts and have researched it over the last few hours. The MVC approach makes sense, but I'm still not sold on it yet. Here are some doubts I have.
1) I think the separation of presentation (view) from the model and controller has gone too far (or probably is not done well in Struts). For example, I like to have my front end developers do form (field) validation. These developers should not have to write beans to do this (all examples I've seen so far do form validation in Java beans). This somewhat contradicts the J2EE development model where "application developers", who are basically scripters (not OO developers), do the front end work.
2) There is just too much junk to write to do a simple form. The samples I've seen have involve too many files to do a simple form. Plus, why should I have to write a new bean for each form. Why can't the bean either be generated automatically or there be a general purpose bean (with properties that are created dynamically) that works for all forms?
3) We already separate business logic nicely, usually by encapsulating the logic in beans or EJBs. By the time the "application developers" get to work writing JSP/HTML, they are not writing any business logic. So why add the overhead of Struts (or any other framework)?
4) Because we separate out business logic into beans and EJBs, Java is simply used as a scripting langauge in our JSPs - in just the same way that VBScript is used in Active Server Pages. We try not to confuse the object oriented language called Java, with the scripting language called Java that we use in JSPs. We use a very small subset of Java in JSPs.
5) Based on #4, I don't particularly care for taglibs either. Again, we are simply using Java to do simple scripting. Loops are probably the most complex thing we do. So why add the extra overhead of taglibs. A loop is a loop whether it has the syntax of Java or a taglib. Plus, if I want my front-end developers to get any experience with serious development, I'd rather have them dealing with Java as opposed to taglibs, which have no value in the real world of programming.
6) Performance is unknown. I've looked through the mail archives and have seen requests for performance figures, but no answers (plenty of folks pushing Struts though).
Mike
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