Dude, where have you been. What you have said has already been posted. But, you also have to remember that the JCP members are going to want their product (their name is associated with) to be as complete and strong as .NET so I still think that JSF will have everything Struts does within a year or so. Which can be an eternity, I do realize. I am not saying Struts is done right now. I just think it is going to be like do I choose the Camaro or the Firebird (two things that are that closely related in what they offer), though, Struts and JSF won't come off the same assembly line (in Canada and this won't be the last year of production, but other than that... :) .
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Raeburn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 4:53 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: RE: [OT] Interesting JSF info You talk as if Sun were in sole control of the destiny of JSF and of Struts. The truth is that Sun in in control of neither. JSF is being developed under the the Java Community Process and the expert group comprises a wide cross section of companies and individuals. You can see for yourself: http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=127 >From the JCP home page: "The Java Community Process is the way the Java platform evolves. Its an open organization of international Java developers and licensees whose charter is to develop and revise Java technology specifications, reference implementations, and technology compatibility kits. Both Java technology and the JCP were originally created by Sun Microsystems, however, the JCP has evolved from the informal process that Sun used beginning in 1995, to a formalized process overseen by representatives from many organizations across the Java community." That doesn't sound very like Microsoft at all. (Microsoft also aren't known for giving away the fruits of their labour or committing development resources to open source projects.) Also, don't forget that JSF is a *specification*, not a product. As far as I'm aware, vendors (in the loose sense, including Apache) will be free to develop their own implementations. With regard to Struts, as long as there is demand and support for Struts from the user community then Struts will continue to exist and develop. Even if JSF encompassed everything that Struts has to offer (Craig says it doesn't and I'm apt to believe him) that would not kill Struts as long as people still want an alternative. The bottom line is that Struts will be what *we* need it to be and what *we* make of it. Steve p.s. I don't work for Sun and I don't hate Microsoft :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Bailey, Shane C. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: August 11, 2003 12:06 PM > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' > Subject: RE: [OT] Interesting JSF info > > > > > I understand all that but as Sun is more like Microsoft than given credit > (at least with Java). IE incorporated JavaScript because it had to even > though NS invented it based on Sun's language (neither > Microsoft's friend). > Not that Struts is JSF's foe but I think for the meantime it is > good to have > them play well together until Sun decides how they want to complete the > whole framework from A-Z and anything you can do in Struts you > will be able > to do with JSF and so will be promoted that way (at least by Sun > of course). > > Java (to Sun) is like Windows (to Microsoft): The browser is part of the > OS. In the same vain it will come down to this: JSF is part of Java so > therefore that is what you should use (as your one and only > framework). Can > you imagine MS saying, no, use NS in concert with IE? > > My point is that Sun has added to the core or extensions of Java > everything > but the kitchen sink. C++ has been around longer and maybe it is > my lack of > knowledge but I think Sun's Java (it's younger years) has more APIs to > develop in more genres than C or C++. Java is destined to be > everything to > everybody. No one over there will be happy with JSF being used in part. > > Sun has to compete with .NET. If .NET offers everything for EE > development > then so does Sun's Java and they can't risk that people will just know to > use Struts along with JSF they want to say here is the whole > thing, the only > thing you need to compete with .NET, come and get it at Sun.com! > > That is just my opinion, of course. > > But I guess you are right that if the Struts controller framework > is better > and plays well with JSF that, even if Sun promotes JSF as a 100% solution, > it doesn't mean developers will do exactly that. You do know > more about the > near future but I am just trying to look a little farther beyond. > > It is almost like you are saying it yourself that in order for > Struts to be > used in concert with JSF there needs to be some changes (new features you > are going to add to Struts). Unless you are saying that Sun is going to > package JSF so that it contains code from the Jakarta project and > so stated. > Then I can see Struts hanging around as Mozilla is the base for browser > development then Struts will be the code base for some JSF releases. > > BTW, I did not know you worked for Sun: > http://java.sun.com/j2ee/javaserverfaces/ > so you know how Sun works. Where am I going wrong? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 2:22 PM > To: Struts Users Mailing List > Subject: Re: [OT] Interesting JSF info > > On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Bailey, Shane C. wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:24:53 -0400 > > From: "Bailey, Shane C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [OT] Interesting JSF info > > > > > > > > Start here: > > > > http://java.sun.com/webservices/docs/1.2/tutorial/doc/IntroIWA6.html > > <http://java.sun.com/webservices/docs/1.2/tutorial/doc/IntroIWA6.html> > > > > hit the TUTORIAL'S back button. Read the last paragraph. > > > > > > > > HeHe. > > > > It sure sounds like JSF is here to conquer not to co-exist. > > > > :-) > > > > > > Since I wrote Struts in the first place, and am co-spec-lead of JSR-127 > (JavaServer Faces), perhaps my opinion on this topic might be of some > interest? :-). It's certainly been of interest in LOTS of mail threads > on this list over the last year or so -- see the mail archives for > details. I also presented a session ("Beyond Struts") at O'Reilly Open > Source 2003 in July, and the slides are available here: > > http://www.apache.org/~craigmcc/ > > Basically, you can use Struts and JavaServer Faces together already: > > http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-struts/release/struts-faces/ > > and this library will be updated as the JavaServer Faces spec is changed > on the path towards a final 1.0 release. My personal plan will be to do > two things as soon as JavaServer Faces goes final. > > * Migrate my existing Struts based apps to using JavaServer Faces > component tags, instead of Struts HTML tags, to take advantage > of their additional functionality. Fortunately, this can be > done with basically zero changes to the form beans and actions. > > * Focus my efforts on adding new features to Struts towards the > core controller framework, rather than extending the existing > HTML tags. That's where the value of Struts really comes from, > in my opinion -- the HTML tag library was always a means toward > an end, not the core benefit of the framework. > > Craig McClanahan > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
