Non-standard Time Zones [was Re: Vertical declining sundial help]

Peter Mayer Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:16:19 -0700

Hi,

If I can add my tuppence worth.Several sundial/astronomy programs have pre-defined time zone listswhich assume that all the world sets its standard time by a 15 degreelongitude difference. But: about 1/6th of the world doesn't (anin-my-head calculation based on India's billion population, plus oddjurisdictions like that in which I live: South Australia, as well as theNorthern Territory).While most sundial programs allow one to input non-standard timezones (e.g. Sonne, Shadows, Dialist, ZW2k...) some really useful onesdon't (e.g. Sundial Align, Orologi Solari). Astronomy programs are lesslikely to give options for setting non-standard locations (e.g ElectricAstrolabe, and Planets 202).So: my plea to programmers is to either allow the user to enter thestandard time zone themselves, or else do as Dialist does and allow theuser to enter a deviation from a standard time zone.


cheers,

Peter

Simon [illustratingshadows wrote:

Standards are essential in many lines of work. However, standards also tend to 
limit, and in some cases lower the bar by going to a common denominator. 
Standards can also become esoteric at the other extreme. And many times 
standards are built by the academia without regard to the man-on-the-street.

The BSS spent time on standardizing the presentation of sundial formula. That standard is good, but above many lay persons. And thus people don't use it, and thus why people go their own way. Also, it is after the fact as far as the classic books go, and like it or not, classic books are what most people use.

I don't see why programs should use a common standard on input terms to the nth 
degree as long as each program defines the terms, as for example on their input 
data panels.

I have used many, most, if not all the programs everyone else used for sundial plate design, and I dont agree that the terms used are outside of reasonable tolerances. I think they all explain the data input, and what is meant, and when longitude is + or - for west, etc. SD and style distance are used in all programs, SH and style height similarly. Some programs accept dial longitude and then don't use it unless also told to make that adjustment, some use - for east some use +, some work on both hemispheres and some dont.

In fact, look at the EOT. Astronomers use an opposite sign to sun dial people. 
It aint going to change. Using a program should be more than a rote action, 
there should be some good understanding underlying gnomonics before designing a 
dial.

My preference for programs is (1) my own DeltaCAD macros which I re worked in 
the last month for much more user friendly formats, and (2) ShadowsPRO. 
However, all programs out there serve a purpose, and all do a good job. Mine 
were aimed at getting diallists beyond dialling, and into modifying the raw 
code, their focus is education. My code is conversational even in object 
oriented language systems, since conversational methods are easier to follow 
when looking at source code. Thus the programs I have written for DeltaCAD, 
LISP, FORTRAN, C, Basic, Visual BASIC, JAVA, Python, Euler, Scilab, Octave, 
Pascal, variations in Excel, and for the PalmPilot (docs to go as well as 
standalone prc), TurboCAD, and horror of horrors, even COBOL, are all aimed at 
education. They all work, however they are tools.

Enough of my ranting. Look at all the programs and use the ones you like. There 
is enough choice out there so that each of us with our quirks and preferences 
can find what we like.

Simon

PS: anyone with my DeltaCAD macros older than July 2008 may wish to download 
the latest versions, they are integrated into a few macros covering generic 
dial types, comments expanded on data fields, and the notes on printing dial 
plates expanded for big and small dials plates. The ZIP file is bigger because 
it has the new ones, a larger set of notes on using them, and still has the old 
macros as well for those who like the smaller macros.



--- On Sun, 7/27/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Vertical declining sundial help
To: "jlcarmichael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Sundial list Sundial list" <sundial@uni-koeln.de>
Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 2:43 AM
Well, maybe it would not be enough, but some agreement in
the sundial community (between both software makers and
dialists) on nomenclatures etc. could help in creating a
"de facto" standard.

I agree with John, we absolutely don't need a war
between programmers, however I think that some more
feedback on what a program does would be useful, I'm
sure that there are several aspects that could be enhanced
and that the programmer cannot see because he is the
author.
It's not a question of criticizing any programs, just a
way to improve them.

Greetings.

Gian

---------- Initial Header -----------

From      : "John Carmichael"

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To          : "Ricardo Cernic"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc          : "sun.dials"
[EMAIL PROTECTED],"yan"
[EMAIL PROTECTED],"sundial" sundial@uni-koeln.de
Date      : Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:03:09 -0700
Subject : RE: Vertical declining sundial help

I agree with you Ricardo that a consensus among

programmers would be nice.

But it's just not the programs that are different.

In sundial literature

you see different nomenclatures as well.  Models are

fine if you are

designing a dial for your local location where you can

test it.  But if you

are designing a dial that's for somewhere else,

then a model isn't very

helpful, unless you ship the model to where it's

going and test it there.

That's another reason why I like to use two or

more sundial programs to

double check the drawings against each other,

especially if actual testing

is not possible.

But I don't want to criticize any particular

program, because I love them

all for different reasons, and we are all deeply

indebted to their makers

for sharing them with us.  Besides, we don't want

to start a war between the

programmers!  But it's something to think about,

for sure.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ricardo Cernic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 1:39 PM
To: jlcarmichael
Cc: sun.dials; yan; sundial
Subject: RE: Vertical declining sundial help

Yan,

John raised a very good point. I've tested most of

the programs mentioned

(btw, all of them are very good) and you must be very

careful about the

tricks behind the nomenclatures. What I usually do is

to build a small scale

sundial using cardboard and test it to make sure

I've input the parameters

correctly according to the definitions used by a

certain program. This

approach save a lot off time, money and avoid

frustrations.

John,

If I'm not wrong most of the authors of the

programs mentioned are members

of this list and/or some one in the list know them.

So, extending your

point: why this community does not discuss the best

nomenclature to be used?

After a consensus is reached the authors could decide

to change or not their

programs. Also,wWhy not to use a kind of certification

like NASS/BSS/etc

nomenclature compliant? In the software industry there

are different kinds

of certification (Linux, Windows Vista, Mac, etc.).

BR,
Ricardo Cernic
São Paulo, Brazil

---------- Início da mensagem original -----------

     De: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],

sundial@uni-koeln.de

Cc:Data: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:20:08 -0700

Assunto: RE: Vertical declining sundial help

p.s.

A word of warning about using any of these

sundial design programs-

These sundial programs ask you to input the

characteristics of the sundial

you want.

But they all use different nomenclature and

definitions for longitude and

wall declination inputs.  Some of them use negative

values (-) for West

longitudes, and other use positive values (+) for West

longitudes.  So be

careful when you enter longitude and wall declination

values that you use

the correct sign.  When I use design a sundial I

always use at least two

sundial programs so that I can catch any input errors.

I compare both

drawings to make sure they are identical. Often I

catch major errors because

I got confused and did not enter the correct longitude

value sign or the

wall declination value sign.

To avoid these serious errors, read the

"Help" or "Definition" tabs to

find out the correct value definition for each

program.

It's unfortunate that the dialing community

does not have uniform

definitions for longitude and wall declination. It

makes it confusing for

beginners and even experienced dialists.  It

definitely makes communication

among dialists more confusing and error prone. And it

makes these programs

dangerous in the hands of beginners.  I bet a lot of

people have entered the

wrong values in these programs and have made sundials

that don't work and

they wonder why.

John



        
(educational) Sundial Cupolas, Towers &

Turrets:

http://StainedGlassSundials.com/CupolaSundial/index.html

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 9:29 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: R: Vertical declining sundial help

Why don't you try with my "Orologi

Solari" program ?

It can manage several types of dials including

vertical declining ones,

and

it can design a day line for a specific day.
It includes a large help file.
User interface and help file are in English as

well as in Italian and

Czech.

It can be freely downloade from my web pages :

http://digilander.libero.

it/orologi.solari
Try and let me know !
Gian Casalegno

----Messaggio originale----
Da: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Data: 26/07/2008 15.46
A: <sundial@uni-koeln.de>
Ogg: Vertical declining sundial help

I've been interested in sundials for a

long time but I've never built

one. As an engineer by trade, I have some

understanding of the math, but

never actually having used the equations for

a real project my

understanding hasn't been tested. :-)

We recently bought a house that has a perfect

location for a vertical

declining sundial. The wall faces almost

directly south - it is 17 deg.

off with a bearing of N73W - and faces a

school.

So I'd like to set up the sundial with

the summer vacation marked. I

can't find any information on how to

calculate the position for a

specific date on a vertical declining

sundial.

I'm at 44°03´07´´N 123°05´12´´W
<http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Eugene%

2C_Oregon&params=44_03_07_N_123_05_12_W_type:city>.

I would appreciate any help getting started.

Thanks,

--Yan

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Yan Seiner (_)\(_)

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Non-standard Time Zones [was Re: Vertical declining sundial help]

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