I should add that this is not "academic" for me.
From (nonscientific) personal experience, I
have formed the impression that spaced mike techniques
color instrumental sound. Even ORTF--not very space--
is not as spot on for tone color as Blumlein.(Widely
spaced omnis are all over the map on timbre as a function
of location I think).
But this immpression is just another piece of anecdotal evidence.
No one needs to take it seriously, however much I personally
believe it.
But I would
actually like to know in some systematic
way if this is true!--or not.
I cannot imagine why people would not want to know this
sort of thing themselves.
One other point: I have read a great many book on
recording techniques, as I am sure we all have.
I have never seen a systematic treatment of this
subject. If the information JN alludes to actually
exists, it is surely a well kept secret from
the authors of those books.(In my experience,
such audio information tends to be like the
midnight kisses in "When I fall in love"--
not there in the sun the next morning. All this supposed
literature of reliable scientific information
tends to turn out to be very dubious stuff if
it even exists , once one starts to look for it
and look at it hard. Even the localisation literture
is not all that convincing in detail as far
as microphone technique is concerned, though there
is a good bit of it. And a lot of it is contradicted
by other parts of it.)
Robert
On Fri, 5 Jul 2013, Robert Greene wrote:
I answered a lot of messages in succession without going
on the the next. So please forgive evolving answers!
I do note the complete discontinuity between
the response to my original post to the effect
that no one needs or wants what I was suggesting
(simple tests recorded) and JN's claim that
these exist and everyone know they exist- or the
implication of the latter.
Apparently few people actually do know of such things--
since only JN claims they are there.
I believe they might be there in private. I am
asking where one can find them in public.
Private science is not science. Science
is about shared information. I know a proof
of the Riemann hypothesis--but I am not telling.
Everyone would laugh , if they even noticed.
Information kept private is not really scientific
information at all.
Robert
On Fri, 5 Jul 2013, Robert Greene wrote:
If they are out there, please tell me where
I can buy a recording of what I indicated--
pink noise sources recorded at various positions
on stage with various mike techniques?
that people may have done this in private
I can believe.
But public information seems limited.
Source please? Things people can actually obtain?
Localization--lots of literature and Boyk's recording
Timbre--sources please?
Robert
On Wed, 3 Jul 2013, J?rn Nettingsmeier wrote:
On 07/03/2013 06:31 AM, Robert Greene wrote:
I apologize if people took offense.
fwiw, i did not take offense at your clear preference for realistic
recordings (which i share and aspire to as well). i do object to
hand-wavey cultural pessimism that postulates the end of scientific
thinking.
stereophonic techniques have been scrutinized and researched in very great
depth and detail, and test recordings of the sort you were alluding to are
routinely done by sound engineering students and seasoned recordist alike.
the papers and data are out there.
stating otherwise doesn't change that fact. let's not make sursound into a
boring solipsistic debate club that negates everything which hasn't been
discussed here before.
<snip>
Except in audio, where no simple question ever seems to
get definitively answered and every almost discussion turns into
mush by means of enlarging the complexity of the situation
to the point that there are so many variables that no analysis is
possible without wild difficulties, if at all.
Personally, I would just like to know which mike technique
does what to the tonal character of sources at different
locations around the recording stage. If you don't care, you
don't care. But I wish I had a disc where I could listen
and find out. I find it hard to believe that other people
are not interested in this.
that's because they demonstrably _are_ interested in this.
it's just not as easy as you make it sound.
let's begin with the simple definition of "tonal character".
you won't be able to separate tonal character from spatial rendition.
coloration and comb filtering are a fact of life, and a perfectly
uncolored monophonic source will often sound less pleasing than a
comb-filtered stereo reproduction (unless your listening room helps a
bit). moreover, the brain is able to extrapolate from severely
comb-filtered sensory input and gives us the impression of hearing an
uncolored auditory event. good luck simplifying that :) i'm looking
forward to hearing about your test design.
Science works like that:one step at a time. Assuming that
people are interested in science.
yeah, that's why we have complete understanding of the human brain.
because it's sooo easy to understand, if only people would read more
sursound and not add needless complications. come on!
Years ago I decided to learn the piano(I am a violinist!)
just to see how it would go, by learning the Rachmaninoff 3rd
piano concerto --a measure at a time. As you can imagine I
did not get very far!
q.e.d.
your approach to scientific evaluation of recording techniques seems
similar.
Audio seems to be missing a lot of the basics.
yes, because psychoacoustics is _hard_.
PS There is a good bit of this sort of thing about
LOCALIZATION. But not so much about timbre.
check out for example theile's "spectral objection to summing
localization", but do get a case of wine and cigars before you dig in,
because it's going to be a loong and very interesting night if you follow
through some more papers.
best,
j?rn
--
J?rn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister f?r Veranstaltungstechnik (B?hne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
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