Dear Todd,
I thought I covered the whole of this answer in, 1. Manipulation of the emission factors for the construction. 2 Control of air leakage and window insulation. I am not clear on if you wanted to have a list or you wanted to do it yourself, if you look at our site you will find those and some more of them. I thought we discussed principles, not details. Details will fill up its own discussion list, but if you get the principles wrong, you will chase ghosts. I have heard what you are saying repeatedly during 30+ years and still we could at the end make a big difference. It is maybe ok that you are saying this, because you are not a professional in the industry, but educated engineers (your advisers) says the same and that is not ok. It is something awfully wrong with the understanding of how both buildings and people works. Only such a basic principle as. that we are not heating or cooling the body, we are actually working with accommodation of a heat source of 37 centigrade temperature, that need around 80 Watt losses (cooling) in idling mode and more in working mode. The heat source (body) temperature needs to be kept at 37 +/- 0.5 centigrade. The source works with radiation (50%), convection (24%) and evaporation (22%) in idling mode. In working mode the source will compensate with a much larger part of evaporation. Please read more on our web site http://energysavingnow.com/ , because this mail will be too long otherwise. We have basically two categories of buildings, residential and tertiary. Grassroots lives in residential and companies in tertiary, to make it simple. The tertiary is maybe the one that causes most problems and this is not a grassroots problem. I have been part of an cycle of 45 years and neither I or the oil reserves will last that long, if we have to be so slow again in other areas. The thing is that Amory Lovins adequate insulation, must be adequate, otherwise he will be far from making the US oil independent and since I did not knew the details, I thought it was a serious statement. As I said, the products and actions are many, but we have some really wrong here and that is the understanding of some major principles. One of the is that air temperature and air, is not the best medium and if you compensate other mistakes or bad designs with warm air, you have this situation with enormous amounts of hot air that we try to keep inside as long as possible and with enormous energy waste. To do it right, you must have at least a minimal understanding on emission/storage/timings etc. in your environment. Todays waste is the result of lack of this minimal understanding and the use of U-values in linear methods for design. dimensioning and control. Linear methods that already from the beginning was known to be awfully inaccurate. When you make bio fuels, you need to understand the process and know the quantities to make it and you must know how to use it. Why do you not have the same demands for people that make our buildings or give you advices on how to correct the mistakes of the people to made the buildings? This was a long answer, as yours, but it was also necessary. I learn a lot about bio fuels and other tings on this list, but I have not learned or have experience to say that I know enough. One day hopefully, because I am a curious person, I will start to practise what I am learning about making bio fuels. For now I am learning because I need to know more about renewable sources, before I publish material on our site. What got me started on this,. was my admiration of Keith's motives, knowledge and work in a developing part of the world. My opinion is that the developed countries are heading for a very hard landing, if not a crash, with very large planes and the developing countries are trying to get off the ground with ultra lights. If you ever piloted a plane, you know that the large ones are less sensitive and easier than the smaller ones. But if you do a mistake in those speeds or the systems fails, the are very unforgiving and consequences disastrous. Hakan At 12:06 PM 9/19/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Hakan, > >We need to work on that deeply ingrained, "heavilily humidified, >insulative layer" mind set that keeps popping up. > >Ya' gotta' stop looking and waiting for "top down solutions" and >start implementing "grassroots up" answers. It's the "age old" >adage of "wish in one hand, spit in the other and see which one >fills up fastest." > >Take the simple Amory Lovins "statement" about adequate >insulation and weatherization making the US an oil independent >country (paraphrased from "Energy Unbound," by Amory & Hunter >Lovins). No mention is made in the same breath of numerous other >efficiencies and technologies that could be used to further >reduce energy demand. He is speaking strictly of those >"insulative" technologies that can be easily applied as "topical >solutions," such as low-e window films and tints, air curtains, >adequately insulated and sealed ducts and pipes, caulking and >weather stripping, reflective roof coats, window upgrages >(disposing of jalousy and single pane windows) blown and batt >insulation, electric outlet gaskets, H2O heater jackets, shaded >HVAC units, convective attic venting, reflective barriers where >appropriate, not to mention the strategic planting of trees for >general shade (which, by the way, Lovins does not mention or >include on the technological side of his equation" just to name >some of the majors. > >None of these are monumental or intensely burdonsome measures. >Yes...I know trees don't grow over night. But it would help if >the construction industry learned how to integrate them into a >site rather than including them in the post-construction >re-landscaping phase. (Amazing how trees increase property >values...!!!!) Yes...I am aware that window replacement isn't >exactly inexpensive or done with a snap of the fingers. But it is >one of the larger areas of energy loss in residences and they >quickly pay for themselves. And yes...I am aware that in some or >perhaps many instances house rewiring may be the order of the day >before blown insulation is installed, just from a safety >perspective. (Believe it or not, many houses in many countries >still have knob and tube wiring!!!) > >But what are the alternatives? Do nothing? I remember canvassing >the Orlando, Florida area attempting to generate public support >for a "negawatts powerplant" rather than Orlando Utilities >Comission expanding Curtis Stanton I into Curtis Stanton II (both >coal fired). The most conservative calculations were that a >modest to robust energy efficiency program could forestall the >need for Stanton II for at minimum 10 years, in turn saving the >public literally hundreds of millions of dollars. (Mind you this >is a publicly owned utility, with the supposed obligation to >serve the public interests.) > >There we had fixed income seniors spending easily $100 - $200 on >silicon window caulking to seal an entire house's jalousy windows >to prevent heat loss or gain, when the entry level into a >low-interest, state-backed, energy efficiency loan is virtually >ZERO dollars, with the energy savings alone paying for the >windows, interest and installation costs. Yet OUC chose to "black >out" this type of information and assistance to the public and >construct Curtis Stanton II in order to insure enough electricity >for the ever expanding tourism industry. (Continued wetland >destruction, urban sprawl, strip malls and new tourism >destinations were deemed more important and in the public >interests than reducing capital expenditures for energy at the >residential and commercial levels. In another two or three years >they will begin the permitting stages for Curtis Stanton III, and >then eventually IV, all the while having done almost virtually >nothing to reduce demand.) > >In the here and now, we're working on a pre-Civil War era home >that has never had the first speck of insulation installed and >still has the original windows in it (state of the art at the >time of its construction). At a material cost of under $1,000 US >we'll be able to reduce winter heat loss via walls and attic by >at least 75%. The improvement pays for itself in a little more >than 1/4 of a year. Try and get a 400% annual return on your >investment anywhere else in any legal market and see how quickly >you're laughed off the grounds. > >And houses and instances such as this abound throughout the >market, in all sectors, in all countries (save...of course... >fohr Sveden :-) > >Yet the majority of the public buys into the "do nothing" >mindset... too busy thinking of reasons why things can't be done >in order to justify doing nothing. > >So with most humble apologies, you won't find me buying into a >contemporary hopes or beliefs that the world's energy ills are >going to be solved primarily from the top down. The top is not >where consumers reside, or at least not 99% of them, nor >necessarily where the greatest achievements can be made. > >In the meantime, we'll keep burning the candle from our end, all >the while waiting for governments, industries and architectural >supply companies and designers to put a match to their end. > >Just a liberally educated and wide awake Appalachian hayseed, > >Todd Swearingen > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 4:29 AM >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hemp Homes in the UK > > > > > > > > Amory Lovins is partially right, but it is not only a question >of > > insulation. I always tell the following comparison, > > > > The average Canadian uses 4 times the amount of energy, > > compared with the average Swede, despite that they have > > compatible living conditions and standard. The average American > > 3 times more and the average Californian twice as much. > > > > If you calculate the consequences, it is more than the American > > import of oil, even if you assume that it is some margins for > > differences in energy production. > > > > Insulation is only one part of it. More than 50% is air leakage > > in combination predominant design of HVAC system, other > > uncontrolled air leakage, over dimensioned HVAC systems > > and inadequate control policies. > > > > To change insulation in existing buildings is normally a big > > task and the walls are not the most important issue. Where > > the insulation is most effective and easiest to complement, > > is in the ceiling. If insulations are done in conjunction with > > renovation or new buildings, it will take 25 to 50 years to > > get a major impact and up to 100 years to change the > > nation wide buildings. > > > > In combination with insulation in ceiling, it is other actions > > that will give faster results as, > > > > 1. Manipulation of the emission factors for the construction. > > 2 Control of air leakage and window insulation. > > 3. More radiant HVAC system. > > 4. More adequate HVAC sizing. > > 5. Relevant control policies and equipment. > > 6. More adequate comfort criteria adapted to the human body. > > 7. Minor changes of habits. > > 8. More relevant energy advices. > > > > The above can result in a 50% or more of the totally possible > > improvement and if you do the above in combination with > > insulation in ceiling 80%. It sound easy, but the large amount > > of products and methods make it more complicated. It will also > > need a re-education of more than 90% of the professional in > > the construction business. > > > > We have not even touched the importance of Peak Demand > > problems, that would be largely minimized with up to 80% > > only with a few of the mentioned points above. > > > > I am sorry that I cannot give Hemp or any other material in >wall > > constructions greater importance. > > > > Hakan > > > > > > At 09:46 PM 9/18/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > >Wow thanks for that, and now I continue to wonder that if all >familys and > > >individuals were housed in nomadic structures, (truck campers >especially > > >and/or boats), and we got rid of most large buildings, >freeways, roads, dams > > >etc.. , except for some for manufacturing/recycling and we >went back > > >towards a more hunter/gatherer, wilderness maintainence type >existence , > > >except we would now have much more opportunities for >re-creation (no regular > > >jobs), how much energy we would save then, and boy the LIFE we >would lead!!! > > >Ken > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > >Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 9:23 PM > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hemp Homes in the UK > > > > > > > > > > I believe it was Amory Lovins who pointed out (and >continually > > > > does so) that if all the buildings in the US were >adequately > > > > insulated and weatherized (to be read "adequately," not > > > > "super-"), the US would or could be free of all imported >fuels. > > > > > > > > Gee...I wonder what could be done if that were coupled with >a > > > > national fleet of energy efficient vehicles. > > > > > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:15 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hemp Homes in the UK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd, > > > > > > > > > > If Hemp fiber board is such a leap in price/performance >as > > > > > the PC, I am sure that it is a huge market for it. > > > > > > > > > > I wished that the construction sector was as open, for >even > > > > > basic advances in engineering, as the computer sector. >Then > > > > > we would spend on average 50% less energy in our >buildings. > > > > > This is not applicable for Norway/Denmark and Sweden, who > > > > > has proved that the previous statement is correct. > > > > > > > > > > California would not have a peak demand crises. US and > > > > > Canada would be much less energy dependent. The current > > > > > world politics more human instead of focused on fossils. >The > > > > > list can be made very long. > > > > > > > > > > Again, I am not against using Hemp fiber board, but it is >not > > > > > a quantum leap in construction engineering. If they could >learn > > > > > to consider more than 2-3 parameters, it would be. > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 10:56 PM 9/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > >Hakan, > > > > > > > > > > > >I remember in the 80's buying a little 286 with 5.25 >floppy > > > > and a > > > > > >mono-chrome monitor for well over $1,000 US. Now I can >get an > > > > 80 > > > > > >gig hard drive, DVD player, CD-RW, multiple USB ports, > > > > > >intelli-mouse, anatomic keyboard, software out the >yazoo, 14 > > > > inch > > > > > >monitor, 56 k modem, neuvo top of the line sound and >audio > > > > cards, > > > > > >network card and a half a dozen rebate coupons for under > > > > $1,000. > > > > > > > > > > > >Hemp fiberboard and lite-crete type products are already > > > > nearly > > > > > >comparable in price to their market mirrors. Just that >there > > > > are > > > > > >few manufacturers at this time. Mind you the market is >still > > > > in > > > > > >its birth pangs after 50 years of prohibition in the UK. > > > > > > > > > > > >Canadia is well on its way to a profitiable venture if >the US > > > > DEA > > > > > >can keep from mucking everything up (with intent). A $20 > > > > million > > > > > >NAFTA lawsuit is already in the works for their embargo >two > > > > years > > > > > >ago and DEA was throttled for their attempt to >circumvent due > > > > > >process in regulation reform earlier this year when they > > > > > >attempted to invoke a zero tolerance policy on oil, >seed, food > > > > > >and other oilseed products. > > > > > > > > > > > >Give it some time. Hemp fibre board will be a norm in >another > > > > > >5-10 years, as will numerous other industrial hemp > > > > construction > > > > > >products. > > > > > > > > > > > >Todd Swearingen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! 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