Would someone kindly remove me from this godforsaken list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "motie_d" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 5:58 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the Nazis rounded up the Jews for their trip to the showers, > > >they were unable to resist. > > > > Another American who feels somewhat the same just told me he feels > > like he's living in Germany in the 1930s. > > > > >Some of us have decided that we won't > > >give up our defensive tools until we are out of ammo. > > > > Didn't the Taliban, for instance, also feel that way? No, not > trying > > to stir it up at all, just trying to indicate that it might not > help > > you much more than it helped them, should it ever come to that. > > Is it better to willingly submit to slavery? > > > > > So, yes, it's about our Constitution! > > > > Well, have a look at what the Swiss have done with it - same bit of > > paper basically. > > > > > > > > "Switzerland, by the way, > > modelled its current federal constitution on the US, in 1848. > > Government there is a very local business, strictly bottom-up, the > > federal government is tiny and hardly seems to matter. There's no > > clear division between the governing party and the opposition." > > While ours has metamorphisized into 'Top Down', is huge, and matters > in every aspect and detail of our lives. > > > > It would seem the leaders, if that's quite the word (I think > > it isn't quite the word), don't have much choice but to abide by > the > > consitution, and anyway nobody seems to take very much notice of > them. > > We don't have the option to ignore them, when everything we do needs > a Permit(or several) from someone who is under NO obligation to grant > it, and has immunity from prosecution for his failures. There is > little or no accountability for misfeasance, malfeasance or outright > corruption. > > > > I think one aspect of the teledemocracy James is proposing is that > is > > could be local local local. > > A return to local control over local affairs would be desirable, and > some of us are working on it. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jail4judges/ > http://www.jail4judges.net > > > > > > > > Anyway, Motie, you see teledemocracy = Direct Democracy = Mob Rule, > > the preferred alternative being the Rule of Law, and, what, the > > status quo? > > We seem to have a misunderstanding on terminolgy. What I was > referring to as Mob Rule, is what is currently happening in our > forests. Loggers are demonized as wanting to destroy the forests for > fun and profit, and honestly concerned but misinformed people write > letters/make phone calls to their Representative to stop them. The > Representatives then pass a 'Law' prohibitting timber harvesting, > with no legal authority to write such a 'Law'. Constitutional 'Due > Process' is ignored by Judges who rule in whatever manner is most > profitable to them personally, with little pretense to complying with > Due Process or Rule of Law. They simply make an arbitrary decision, > and have men with guns(Law Enforcement) enforce their illegal > mandates. Legal appeals and Petitions for Redress of Grievance are > mostly ignored, with NO Due Process folowed in dismissing the case. > Those who persist in their quest for Justice are fined and jailed, > and their houses confiscated by more arbitrary decisions of the > Judge. When the Judges won't follow the Laws, we have Tyranny in > action. > > > Somehow I don't think you're that happy with either of > > those. The bit above ending with the Patriot Act is either the Rule > > of Law at work or shows that it's a weakling, easily purloined. It > > also looks more than somewhat like what you have now is Mob Rule. > > The definition I was using for Mob Rule, is when a few individuals > can misinform an ignorant bunch of people to forcefully impose their > wishes on others with NO regard for Laws. Basically a Riot, with > members of the Mob being controlled by a few manipulative people with > a personal agenda. The Salem Witch trials would fit the definition of > Mob Rule, as I intended to use it. The KKK would be another example. > Tyranny, as I used it, is sort of a dispersed Monarchy, or shared > Dictatorships, with Judges in each Judicial District being the > Supreme Ruler, and with their immunity to prosecution are totally > unaccountable. > > > Law > > and justice are not the same. That allegedly virginal and unraped > > lady in the white dress has a set of scales and a sword, usually a > > two-edged one that seems to cut a lot more with one edge than the > > other, and no wonder, since she's blindfold. Blind justice? I think > > what they meant, or should have meant, was impartial justice. > > I agree that impartial Justice, based on Rule of Law, was the > original intent. When certain people with political connections are > allowed to disregard the Laws, there is no longer any Justice. > > > Now how > > much of that do you find in the Rule of Law? And how does all this > > have a bearing on what's going on and not going on in your local > > forest? If not, why not? It's deadlocked. How to break the > deadlock? > > Equal applicability of the Laws will be needed to bring us to a state > of Justice. How to do so, is the problem. Not to get off-topic, but > that is why we are so defensive of gun ownership. That is our last > line of defense. > > > What's befallen your own project looks to me like a good example of > > Mob Rule and the Rule of Law being available to the highest bidder. > > You might succeed in tipping those scales your way (not that the > > blind lady will even notice), but it shouldn't be happening in the > > first place. So much for business-as-usual when it comes to > > democracy. What democracy? What's better, to go on and on flogging > a > > dead horse, or try something new? > > I don't see it as Mob Rule, unless you are using the Mafia or > Organized Crime as the definition of 'Mob'. Perhaps this is where we > are misunderstanding each other? If this is your preferred definition > of 'Mob Rule', I concurr. > > Direct Democracy is where 50 misinformed activists can overrule 10 > professional Foresters as to the best method of preserving the health > of our forests, with no need for any evidence to support their > argments. Facts are irrelevant in a Direct Democracy as I understand > the term. > > > > > > > > Motie > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
