>Well put. I am old enough to know a few veterans of Viet Nam. >Some will not talk about what they did. Some do. After returning >home, one went 'down the pike' to the lowest levels on drugs and >alcohol. A "streeter". Most of the guys he went with died over a >few years, as the lowest dregs of society. Bums. Fogged in drugs >and alcohol. That would have been his fate too, but somehow he >survived. > >What I am getting at is, for the sake of society, and the young >soldiers, war better be fully justified, or it will create burden >that gets paid for again and again over time, with the twisting of >minds of young soldiers. > >Ed B
That seems to be what they think too, or some of them at least. http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15356 Veterans' Letter to the President By Veterans For Common Sense http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/ March 11, 2003 The following letter was signed by 1,000 war veterans and given to the President on March 10, 2003. <snip> Another veterans' group, Veterans Against Iraq War is organizing three days of protest in Washington D.C. from March 22 to March 24. http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php Others also think so: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=3255 Support Our Troops by Michael Albert March 17, 2003 IRAQ If war comes even despite the historic, tenacious, and comprehensive opposition now raging across the planet, the U.S. government will proclaim triumphantly that everyone who isn't a traitor needs to rally around Washington to "support our troops." Opponents of the war could opt for many possible replies. We could point out that our troops in Iraq are barely in danger at all because they are assaulting a tenth-rate opponent that has no serious means to defend Iraq much less to attack the world's sole superpower. We could point out that while perhaps a few hundred U.S. troops will die in this war, way over 50,000 U.S. citizens will die in the next 12 months due to workplace accidents and death by industry-caused diseases and automobile accidents (not to mention the impact of pollution and unsafe products). We could then query why this massive yearly blight on our population, roughly 15 times as devastating as 9/11, doesn't provoke a war on corporations' profit-seeking violations of their employees' and consumers' health and safety. Or we could point out that the lives of American troops are no more worthy of compassionate support than the lives of Iraqis, and that we didn't kill Hussein a million times over with our decade-long sanctions but we instead killed a million Iraqis once each -- with Hussein getting stronger as each new corpse was added to the carnage. And of course we could explain how unleashing a campaign to "shock and awe" a country is unjust and immoral, how it is an archetype example of the terrorism we say we are against. But for myself, I think that perhaps a different approach might work better, and so if war does come, I intend to reply to the demand to support our troops by saying that yes, I too "support our troops." I will reply that I support our troops not having to kill people in Iraq. I support our troops not being ordered to assault defenseless populations, towns, farms, and the infrastructural sinews of life that sustain a whole country's citizenry. I support our troops not having to carry out orders from Commander in Chief George Bush and then having to live the rest of their lives wondering why they obeyed such a barbaric buffoon rather than resisting his illegitimate, immoral authority. And for the same reason, I support the Pope and the Dalai Lama going to Iraq in the place of our troops, as human shields and also to aid those Iraqis who have already suffered under our sanctions and bombs as well as under the violence of Hussein who was, of course, previously the recipient of U.S. military aid and even U.S. guidance in his horrible undertakings. In fact, I support all rabbis and priests and other moral leaders going to Iraq as human shields - and all past Noble Peace Prize winners -- and all past winners of any big peace or humanitarian prize at all, anywhere -- and heads of state, for that matter. I support our troops not dying in Iraq figuratively or literally, physically or psychologically. I support our troops coming home with their hearts not broken, retaining humanity and compassion essential to feeling true solidarity with those who confront tyrannical behavior abroad, or right here in the U.S. with its 30 million tyrannized poor. I support our troops coming home with their minds ravenous to comprehend what is wrong with war for empire, what is wrong with war to obliterate international law, what is wrong with war to control oil and use it as a bludgeon against allies and enemies alike, what is wrong with war for profit, what is wrong with war to intimidate whole nations and continents, what is wrong with war to subordinate a planet and even to test and trumpet the tools of war. What must it do to one's mind and soul to engage as a soldier in a war in which the enemy is defenseless, in which the motives of one's leaders are vile, and in which one's own say over the events is nil? I support our troops refusing to kill on behalf of politicians and profiteers. I support our troops rebelling against orders, not obeying them. I support our troops rejecting reasons of state. And I support our troops coming home to where their real battle is. We must battle to reinvest our society with aspirations for justice and equality and with respect for diversity, solidarity, and self-management. We must battle to eliminate the scourge of private ownership that makes a few people as rich as whole populations and that leaves many people less rich than the pets of profiteers. We must battle to totally eradicate the racism and sexism that denigrate whole sectors of the population, to free sexuality and culture, to free creativity, and to sustain the environment. Bush tells us to bomb Iraq on grounds Iraq may have bombs. He tells us to bomb Iraq on grounds Iraq curtails freedoms. He tells us to bomb Iraq on grounds Iraq may be abetting terrorism. What then should we do about a country that has by far the most bombs in the world and that uses them most widely-and that brags about it shamelessly? What should we do about a country that is currently curtailing freedoms abroad and moving to do so at home with a dangerously escalating vigor-and that brags about it shamelessly? And what should we do about a country that is producing terrorism most aggressively - both terrorism directed at others and also terrorism which will be unleashed against us in reply-and that brags about it shamelessly. What should we do about the U.S.? We should curtail its belligerency, change its regime, and fundamentally revolutionize its centers of wealth and power. Support our troops, bring them home. Support our troops, provide them housing. Support our troops, provide them health care. Support our troops, provide them socially valuable jobs. Turn military bases into industrial centers for the production of low cost housing, schools, hospitals, daycare centers, rail lines, inner city parks, and other social and public goods that can enrich rather than snuff out life. Support our troops and one day they will join the fight for unlimited justice for all. Support our troops. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hakan Falk > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:38 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT >REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! > > > > Dear Vern, > > I can not imagine anything worse happening to me than if I > unintentionally or intentionally would cause the death of a > human being. I met many people who has been in that situation > and still have to meet one who has not been scarred for life > of that experience. This has been people involved in accidents > as well as people who participated in wars. I am not talking > about decision makers nor am I talking mentally disturbed people. > > I can accept that violence like war can be necessary to defend > yourself from an attack. It is nothing that anyone can say that > preemptive violence and killing can ever be a just cause. If > I do, I would accept many of the reasons for past wars as just > wars, even if they were lost. > > President Bush and cohorts make me sick. Not only are they > talking about wars like it would be a Hollywood adventure and > childish games of who is blinking first, the are actually trying > to defend their killing of people, based on that the other party > might do something. Preemption is a very dangerous thing and > if it is accepted as a doctrine, it will be used by others and this > world will forever change. During the whole of US history it > has been a strong rejection of preemption as an excuse for > war. President Bush makes me sick and I am sad that I had > to live to see the first American President who starts a preemptive > war, this against a strong world opinion and with the lack of any > democratic principles. If democratic principles are worth anything > for Bush or Blair, they had to take in count the world opinion. > Instead they cowardly redraw a resolution to gain a possibility > to legally defend their attack on Iraq. > > I feel sorry for you, if you are not anti war. Any normal human > being must be anti war, it is unbelievable to find any sane person > that are pro war. Violence is the weapon of the weak. I picked up > the following quote and it is very telling, > > "No flag is large enough to cover the shame of > killing innocent people" -- Howard Zinn > > But on the other hand "collateral damage" does not sound so > bad or does it? > > Hakan > > > At 11:12 PM 3/18/2003 +0300, you wrote: > > >Well Keith, there so far are two list members who are not anti war, we have > >only tried to correct an incorrect assumption made by another list member. > > > >History will, after time, tell us all who is right and who is wrong. In the > >meantime we enjoy the right to have differing opinions. You continue to try > >to educate us with lots of information each day to try to make your point. > >It is your list and you can do as you will, I can not and would not try to > >stop you. > > > >It would be a pleasant change if you stopped the personal attacks against > >individuals who do not share your view of the world and who do you the > >courtesy of treating you with personal respect even when we may not think > >you are correct. It is a simple and courteous thing to do. > > > >Best regards, > >Vern > > > > Vern_Hendershott wrote: > > > > >You would be wrong. > > > >And so would you be Vern, as you have been all along. You've been > >closing your eyesto a lot of things, eh? > > > >Keith > > > > > i would bet to say our group is 100% anti war (or so i hope) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John Hayes > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:55 AM > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS > > >INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost! > > > > > > > > > Tricia Liu wrote: > > > > > > >The polls from media are still showing 54% - 59%??? American supports > > >the > > > >Iraqi war! > > > >Can we have a poll in this group? So we can see how many >members think > > >the > > > >war is necessary etc.? It's a world event, can we have a small poll? > > >Set it > > > >up at Journeyforever website? > > > > > > > > > > > Such a poll would be useless given selection bias issues inherent to > > > nonrandom sampling. Besides, do you really need a straw poll >to conclude > > > that the majority of list readers are against this war? > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! 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