Dear Vern,
We have a very important issue here and that is the court of law that you talk about. Any court of law acts as an arbitrator, within its given powers and respect for them by the parties. The honorable judge Lynch would have been proud of his nation, if he would have been alive to see what is going on. We have US that acts like the prosecution and the judge, because the appointed judge was not willing to render a verdict to the US liking and self interest. The damage done to the court UN by US is immense. $25 is a target price by US, where they can maintain the "American way of life". $40 for a longer period will be very difficult and close to $60 the American society will start to deteriorate. This is not my analyses, it is based on several US data, so do not get angry with me. This also means that Iraqi suggestions of oil blockade, was an immediate threat to the US national security and probably the reason for the war. It is however not yet a recognized crime to refuse to deliver national treasures to the US, but in future it might be. One of the biggest unsolved crises that UN had to deal with, is the Israel - Palestine issues and US have through repeated vetoes sabotaged it. For many years now, US have also sabotaged UN by withholding its agreed member fees. I also want to tell you, if you do not really know, that US and UK are the industrial countries that contributes the lowest amounts per capita to UN and other help programs for the developing countries. Sweden is among the highest and I am in that sense proud of being a Swede. Let us together hope and work for a better world. We need many Keith Addison and Journey to Forever for it to work. This is one of the few occasions were I even think about possible benefits of cloning, but I am not sure that it will work, so forget it and do not start a discussion on cloning now, please. Hakan At 02:44 PM 3/19/2003 +0300, you wrote: >Dear Hakan, > >You wrote -- >"It cannot be a continuation of the war 12 years ago, since that >was a liberation of Kuweit by UN and the mandate only covered >this. That is why it stopped when the mandate was achieved. >It was supported by a world opinion and was a response on >an attack by Iraq. It had democratic decisions behind it and >created and performed in a legal fashion." > >I think this is the central difference between the two sides of this issue. > From my perspective if we can for the moment look at it like it were a >court case and at the end of the last Gulf War the judge awarded a verdict >of guilty against Saddam and ordered him to do certain things, which >included disarming and he would suffer house arrest (UN sanctions) until >the judge found him rehabilitated. Now some 12 years latter the judge has >had enough of his games and finds him in contempt of court and orders him >arrested and thrown in jail. It is still one case even after the property >he took is returned to its owner. > >It is regrettable that the UN has not been able to function in a way that >the security counsel members could vote for what is right instead of the >self interest of their own country. That is politics and we do not seem to >have any better solution. > >There are many other big problems in the world today that an effective UN >could help with but as of now they have not been very effective on any of >the major issues for the last 20 or so years at least from my limited view >point. > >I do agree that there are some very concerning similarities between what is >happing now and the events of the 1930's. > >It seems that you think oil at $ 25 is to low a price but it will be very >much lower than that if the good people of this list have their way (and I >hope they do) so that we find sustainable energy sources for the bulk of >the worlds needs. If and when that happens the Middle East will have >millions of people starving to death and the few that survive will only be >able to return to the life style before oil and I think that will be very >hard as many of the skills required are being lost as the current >generation is not being trained to live other than in standard western >style cities. I fear it will be a very big mess that will make this coming >war look like a football game. > >Have a good day. > >Best regards, >Vern > > > > > > > Hakan > Falk > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: > biofuel@yahoogroups.com > cc: > > 03/19/03 02:20 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] > PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS > Please respond to INIRAQ-innocent lives > will be lost! > biofuel > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Vern, > >I am glad that you are anti war also. Josh Cohen expressed a very >large trust in the members of this list when he said that it was 100% >anti war, something that I belive also. It is a large trust in the list >members to say so, but if you say that they are not, then you will >have an argument with our Shepherd. Do you really think that you >could offend the list members without hearing from Keith? Even if >it might be a misunderstanding created by the moment. > >My position is that what happens now is wrong and against some >very fundamental principles. The fundamental principle of the wrong >in preemptive wars are so important, that it overrides any other >argument that can be made for the current illegal attack on Iraq by >US and UK. It does not exclude that we can have discussions >about the moment and wonder how and why Bush/Blair got it so >wrong. It is also very sad that the US propaganda machine works >so well as it does. It is a hidden agenda there and it is the US >desperate need for securing oil supplies and the US/UK oil companies >wish to participate in developing what might be the largest oil >reserves on Earth. > >Bush/Blair are talking about the fund of oil money that will be used >for the Iraqi people. They are taking us for idiots and hope that it >will obscure how it is working. It is not a matter of escaping from >paying for the oil, it is a matter of getting their hands on the only >tap that is not yet fully open. By doing that they can control world >market prices and continue to pillage the gold of Middle East at >$25 a barrel. > >It cannot be a continuation of the war 12 years ago, since that >was a liberation of Kuweit by UN and the mandate only covered >this. That is why it stopped when the mandate was achieved. >It was supported by a world opinion and was a response on >an attack by Iraq. It had democratic decisions behind it and >created and performed in a legal fashion. > >What scares me a lot is the parallels with what happened in >Germany in the 1930's and I pointed that out in an early stage. >I am no alone and MH gave us a very interesting link that goes >along the same lines, > >Published on Sunday, March 16, 2003 by CommonDreams.org >When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History >by Thom Hartmann >http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm > >Unfortunately the events are now running the course and we >will probably only be able to discuss how we should get >Bush/Blair to answer for their crimes in the future. To >discuss how we should prosecute Saddam Hussein for >his crimes will probably not be possible. > >Hakan > > >At 10:42 AM 3/19/2003 +0300, you wrote: > > >Dear Hakan, > > > >I agree with what you have said completely. But there is one area where >see > >the same thing from a different perspective or in a different way. I see > >the current resumption of increased hostilities (war) as an extension of > >the war that started over 12 years ago and has been going on since then in > >a more limited way as the politicians tried to make the peace that Saddam > >had agreed to work. During all this time Iraq has continued to act > >belligerently (just ask any of the collision fighter pilots that have been > >fired on by their anti aircraft units and yes we fired back) this is not a > >new or preemptive situation it is, hopefully the conclusion of a long and > >sad war which could have been ended much earlier and many lives saved and > >much suffering could have been avoided. How long must that death and > >suffering continue in the name of a political solution? > > > >All out war is very bad, dragged out war may be even worse if you are the > >object of the suffering. > > > >Best regards, > >Vern > > > > > > > >Dear Vern, > > > >I can not imagine anything worse happening to me than if I > >unintentionally or intentionally would cause the death of a > >human being. I met many people who has been in that situation > >and still have to meet one who has not been scarred for life > >of that experience. This has been people involved in accidents > >as well as people who participated in wars. I am not talking > >about decision makers nor am I talking mentally disturbed people. > > > >I can accept that violence like war can be necessary to defend > >yourself from an attack. It is nothing that anyone can say that > >preemptive violence and killing can ever be a just cause. If > >I do, I would accept many of the reasons for past wars as just > >wars, even if they were lost. > > > >President Bush and cohorts make me sick. Not only are they > >talking about wars like it would be a Hollywood adventure and > >childish games of who is blinking first, the are actually trying > >to defend their killing of people, based on that the other party > >might do something. Preemption is a very dangerous thing and > >if it is accepted as a doctrine, it will be used by others and this > >world will forever change. During the whole of US history it > >has been a strong rejection of preemption as an excuse for > >war. President Bush makes me sick and I am sad that I had > >to live to see the first American President who starts a preemptive > >war, this against a strong world opinion and with the lack of any > >democratic principles. If democratic principles are worth anything > >for Bush or Blair, they had to take in count the world opinion. > >Instead they cowardly redraw a resolution to gain a possibility > >to legally defend their attack on Iraq. > > > >I feel sorry for you, if you are not anti war. Any normal human > >being must be anti war, it is unbelievable to find any sane person > >that are pro war. Violence is the weapon of the weak. I picked up > >the following quote and it is very telling, > > > >"No flag is large enough to cover the shame of > >killing innocent people" -- Howard Zinn > > > >But on the other hand "collateral damage" does not sound so > >bad or does it? > > > >Hakan > > > > > >At 11:12 PM 3/18/2003 +0300, you wrote: > > > > >Well Keith, there so far are two list members who are not anti war, we > >have > > >only tried to correct an incorrect assumption made by another list >member. > > > > > >History will, after time, tell us all who is right and who is wrong. In > >the > > >meantime we enjoy the right to have differing opinions. You continue to > >try > > >to educate us with lots of information each day to try to make your >point. > > >It is your list and you can do as you will, I can not and would not try >to > > >stop you. > > > > > >It would be a pleasant change if you stopped the personal attacks >against > > >individuals who do not share your view of the world and who do you the > > >courtesy of treating you with personal respect even when we may not >think > > >you are correct. It is a simple and courteous thing to do. > > > > > >Best regards, > > >Vern > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > [IMAGE] > > > [IMAGE] > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! 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