Dear Steve, Hakan, et. al., It seems to me that it would take someone with a degree in political science to appreciate and understand the differences between all of these forms of 'democratic' government.
But, it all started with some discussion around socialism and the support of society for the members of the society. It seems to me that this also goes back to the arguments about individual freedoms relative to the needs of society. We are all familiar with the discussion that frequently comes up about the individual right of the Harley rider to ride without a helmet, or the car driver to drive without a seatbelt. Society says that it has the right to force the use of the helmet or the seatbelt to prevent avoidable injuries. The arguments go back and forth like tug-of-war, but at the end of the day, when the Harley rider drops his bike on a pebble and he squashes his head, it won't be long before his insurance runs out, and society will be left holding the bag. So, it would be great if we had a society where the individual could fend for himself and pay his own way from cradle to grave. But...what are we to do about the ones who fall through the cracks. Can we just ignore them? Shouldn't we as a society provide at least a modicum of health care for all? Should we have people starving in the 'richest' country in the world. I feel that I'm about as patriotic a U.S. citizen as one can be. But...I've also worked right down the street from where you live Steve. I'm an emergency medicine doctor and I spent 10 years working at the old Helene Fuld Hospital right in Trenton, N. J., the capital of New Jersey. I also worked at the Atantic City Medical Center, located right across the street from the casinos in Atlantic City. I have been the 'safety net' of the United States, and not by choice. It is a role that shouldn't be. The only other places in the world where I have seen the poverty that we have in our inner cities was in some of the cities of India such as Mumbai, Kolkata, and New Delhi. And, we could talk about personal security. There are many places in the States where one would probably not survive a walk down the street after midnight. I have walked the streets of major cities from London, Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Cairo, Beijing, New Delhi, etc., and not felt particularly unsafe - even in the midst of abject poverty. I guess my point is that we certainly have our own problems. We aren't doing a particularly good job of taking care of our own doorstep. We don't need to preach to any other county about how they keep their doorsteps clean. They might have some socialism in Sweden. Our system certainly isn't pure anything, and as someone pointed out has socialistic programs here and there. But, one way or the other, in Sweden I don't think you will find people who are starving and who do not have basic health care. You certainly can find them about fifteen minutes away from where you live Steve. This should not be happening in our country. Derek > not pure democracy, by definition. pure democracy is almost as bad as > anarchy. you asked, I gave. disagree if you wish, but these are the accepted > definitions. > > Steve Spence > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > http://www.green-trust.org > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 3:05 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > and none of them are democracies? > > > > Hakan > > > > At 02:47 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > >officially? > > > > > >Steve Spence > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 2:21 PM > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is UK then? - constitutional monarchy > > > > What is Canada then? - confederation with parliamentary democracy > > > > What is Australia then? - democratic, federal-state system recognizing > the > > >British monarch as sovereign > > > > What is Spain then? - parliamentary monarchy > > > > What is Sweden then? - constitutional monarchy > > > > What is France then? - republic > > > > What is Germany then? - federal republic > > > > What is Switzerland then? - federal republic > > > > > >and the USA - federal republic; strong democratic tradition > > > > > > > > > > > I am very interested in your definitions of above countries. > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > At 02:00 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >A democracy is mob rule. A republic is democracy with a constitution > that > > > > >specifies what limits the mob has. our 3 way system of government is > set > > >up > > > > >with checks and balances that prevent any one group from over ruling > the > > > > >rights of others. It's quite simple in a complex way. It works for > us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 1:23 PM > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve, > > > > > > > > > > > > My logic is not broken, but you are one of the few that I heard, > that > > > > > > claims that US is not a democracy. In fact, you are claiming that > > > > > > democracy does not exist. Because if democracy is connected to > > > > > > if it is Republic or the opposite a Kingdom like UK, I am afraid > that > > > > > > if it does not exist in a republic, it for sure does not exist in > a > > > > >Kingdom. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding possibilities for Bush to suspend elections, I am not as > > > > > > sure as you. Bush, like Hitler, was given some extraordinary > powers > > > > > > after 9/11 and the fire in Reichtaghaus. Anyway, I think and hope > that > > > > > > you are right when it comes to Bush. > > > > > > > > > > > > I still think that you are muddling up this about democracy and > > > > > > by talking about a Republic not being a democracy, only reinforces > > > > > > my feeling. On the other hand, you are not alone, because Jeb Bush > > > > > > called Spain a Republic when he visited here, To the amusement of > > > > > > all journalists, talk shows and comedians here. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 12:10 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > >You are confused. The US is not a democracy, it's a republic. > It's a > > > > >common > > > > > > >mistake, and many of our own officials slip up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >BTW, where did I give a definition of democracy in the below post > ? I > > >was > > > > > > >discussing Sweden's version of socialism. George Bush, unlike > Hitler, > > > > >could > > > > > > >not abolish elections. He's not able to in our system. "By the > > >people" > > > > >never > > > > > > >disappeared. It still is and will continue to be so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Your "logic" is broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > > > > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > > > > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 11:57 AM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Steve, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We discussed democracy, not party politics. I cannot > > > > > > > > understand how you can confuse this issues. According > > > > > > > > to your definition, US is a lesser democracy when the > > > > > > > > democrats have the presidency like Jack Kennedy, > > > > > > > > Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton etc. and more democracy with > > > > > > > > the republicans Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, senior > > > > > > > > and junior Bush. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have heard a lot of definitions on democracy, but I think > > > > > > > > that this is the funniest one. So if George W. Bush, like > > > > > > > > Hitler, manage to abolish new elections, US would still be > > > > > > > > the greatest democracy on earth, because the politics that > > > > > > > > George W. Bush represent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did "by the people for the people" disappear? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:12 AM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >socialism is used in this context as a country that takes > from > > >all to > > > > > > > > >support all, instead of people doing for themselves. I do not > > >need or > > > > > > >want > > > > > > > > >the government taking care of me (and charging me a princely > sum > > >for > > > > > > >doing > > > > > > > > >do) I'm better able to do it myself, for less. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > > > > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > > > > > > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > > > > > > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > >From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > >Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 5:44 PM > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I would not consider a socialist country like Sweden to > be > > > > >superior > > > > > > >to > > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > > >USA. Swede's may not concur. Americans I know who have > moved > > > > >there, > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > > >Swedes that have moved here, both say that each has it's > > >moments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aarghhh! You said the S-word! We'll all be murdered in our > > >beds!! > > > > >LOL! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > > > > > > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > > > > > > > > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > > > > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > >Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 3:20 PM > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MH, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I expected to hear from you, after reading the links > > > > > > > > > > > > I gave you, especially if you looked at this document, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2002/en/pdf/backone.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > Human developing index > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you go through it, you will find that the "Swedish > > > > >democracy" > > > > > > > > > > > > is superior than the "American democracy" on some > minor > > > > > > > > > > > > issues as social security, human rights, children > labor, > > > > > > >corruption, > > > > > > > > > > > > equality between sexes, education, wealth gap, etc. > That > > >is > > > > >why > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is more difficult to impose "American > > >democracy" in > > > > > > > > > > > > Sweden than in Iraq, contrary to the US administration > > > > >perception. > > > > > > > > > > > > But who knows, military superiority can change most > things > > >and > > > > > > > > > > > > we cannot have something that is better than the > American > > >can > > > > > > > > > > > > we? I guess that Sweden must be liberated also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 10:46 PM 4/10/2003 +0200, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >MH, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2002/cpi2002.en.html > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sorry, 2001 list the Netherlands was on shared 5 with > > >Sweden, > > > > > > > > > > > > >now it is Singapore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2002/en/pdf/backone.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > >Human developing index > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://hdr.undp.org/reports/default.cfm > > > > > > > > > > > > >Human development reports. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 02:49 PM 4/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had a moment filled with laugh and anger when > I > > >looked > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > at an CNN interview with a high ranking US > official. > > > > >This > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enlightened idiot said "it is one thing to bring > > > > >democracy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to a country like Sweden, but more difficult to > a > > > > >country > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like Iraq". As democracy Sweden is known as one > of > > >the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oldest and best in the world and is in the fifth > > >place, > > > > > > >together > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with the Netherlands, of least corrupted > countries > > >in > > > > >the > > > > > > >world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > US is in 16th place, far closer to Nigeria who > is > > >the > > > > >worst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Hakan where do I found this ranking report ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Details, details more details please. 8^} > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > >Biofuels list archives: > > >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! 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