Hi Keith, Thanks for all the information. It will give me a lot to read through. I appreciate your efforts to give me and the list the pointers.
I totally agree that deserts or not really deserted and certainly not worthless. The word choice was a carryover from the other previous poster's post. I am constantly amazed at the quantity and diversity of life that I find in the desert. I also appreciate that the lifestyle of large cities built in the desert and dependent upon vast amounts of energy expenditure to keep them going is less than ideal. Our home here has two huge air conditioners which run constantly in the summer. The house is provided for us. It wouldn't be my option if I were to actually purchase and own. I've replaced all the bulbs with CFs at my own expense, and do what I can to minimize, but fear that these efforts are far less than adequate in the face of the air conditioning and refrigeration demands of leading a Western lifestyle in this environment. Certainly they could have done a lot better job of insulating, etc. Also, as I stated in my second paragraph, I do not advocate what I see. For a long time electricity was almost given away here as a byproduct of water production from the desalination plants. They are cogeneration plants whose primary product is water. Electricity is the byproduct. The primary energy source is natural gas. Cheap electricity has led to a lot of abuses. My goal in the post was to point out that the one previous posters idea of life on a desert island with only energy might not be as impossible as he indicated. It is common in Saudi to grow vegetables in long huts made out of translucent plastic. The light intensity is thusly cut down to about half. One end of the hut has a water drip panal for evaporative cooling. The other end of the hut has a fan to extract the air, which at the same time sucks cool air in through the drip panal. It appears to work fairly well, but there is the expense of constantly running the fans. They also have the world's largest dairy here although I am sure that it is more in lines with what you have discussed as industrialized farming. Although it is far removed from your ideals of dispersed energy production, it is at least possible that large scale energy production could be made with PV panels spaced so as to utilize about half of the incident light. The other half could pass through and be used underneath for agriculture. Wind generators could be poked through the PV canapy and add to the energy production. I think it would be preferable to some of the Sci Fi plans for space based solar collectors microwaving energy to the surface. My personal ideals are much more in line with minimal disturbance of the natural environment. Minimal use of energy. I note though that despite all of the conservation efforts and alternative energy production the global use of petroleum is edging towards 80 million barrels a day. And, it seems to continue to grow in the West despite the fact that the economies have been in a stalemate. If the economy of North America and Europe were booming, one might anticipate that the energy use would be even higher. As the Asian economies continue to grow and their demand for petroleum continues to swell, added to the increased demand in the West as their economies finally get going, I can only anticipate that the global figure will pass the 80 million mark without much of a pause. Where, how and when is it going to end? Derek > Hi Derek and all > > There are woodlands in the Wahiba Sands Desert of Oman, where > communities of Prosopis cineraria and Acacia tortilis trees survive > with little or no rainfall. This species of Prosopis yields useful > timber and excellent firewood, the leaves make nutritious fodder for > livestock, the pods are good fodder and also serve as a vegetable for > humans, the flowers support honey production, and the bark can be > used in leather tanning and yields an edible gum - all on less then > 75mm (2 inches) of rain and an eight-month dry season. > > Prosopis cineraria also thrives in the Thar Desert in North West > India. In Rajasthan and Pakistan it has been the mainstay of the > local economies for thousands of years. This is one of the great > traditional agroforestry systems of the world. The people totally > rely on the Prosopis tree: they lop it for fodder, they eat the pods, > they interplant other crops with it. It tolerates incredibly dry > conditions. However, very little has been done to conserve it, and it > is threatened by over-population. There is tremendous scope to > conserve, investigate and improve the tree, and to extend its use. > Researchers have travelled throughout the range of Prosopis cineraria > in India, often travelling by camel or donkey. They collected 33 of > the most widely different types of the species. > > These varieties have been shared with Oman, and the Omani varieties > with India, and also with the Cape Verde islands. > > Cape Verde is in the sub-Saharan climatic zone and suffers the same > conditions as the Sahara. There hasn't really been a rainy season for > decades. The land is denuded and the soil long gone. Reafforestation > is a national priority, and has concentrated on Prosopis trees. > > "Prosopis "does not compete for moisture with crop plants, which may > be grown close to its trunk." Pakistanis and Indians believe, quite > properly, that it increases fertility under its canopy," says the > estimable James Duke in the Handbook of Energy Crops. Take a look: > > http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Prosopis_cineraria.html > Prosopis cineraria > > http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Acacia_tortilis.html > Acacia tortilis > > There are other such trees, other such systems, and other methods of > growing crops in what people call deserts. > > The Arid Lands Newsletter is an excellent resource: > > http://ag.arizona.edu/OALS/ALN/about-aln.html > About the Arid Lands Newsletter > > ECHO published a useful "Technical Note" on "Dryland Farming: Crops & > Techniques For Arid Regions", by Randy Creswell & Dr. Franklin W. > Martin: > Part I. Introduction É(by Dr. Franklin Martin) > Part II. Crops & Livestock for Tropical Arid Regions É(by Dr. Franklin Martin) > Part III. Dryland Farming Techniques É(by Randy Creswell) > Part IV. Useful Publications & Resources É(by Scott Sherman) > > ... which I have here but now can't find at their website since they > messed it all up. I suppose they could be asked: > http://www.echotech.org/ > > IDRC Reports Vol.22, No.2 July 1994 > > Ancient Ways Guide Modern Methods > by Tom Roach in Nairobi > > The sun had not risen when Shala left her family home in the Northern > Maghreb. She enjoyed the early morning walk through the fields of her > family's market gardens. Now in her seventies, she could remember > walking behind her grandmother just as her youngest granddaughter was > doing now. Together they listened to the birds, admired the dew > glistening on the rows of vegetables and discussed the fact that > fewer and fewer gardens were being cultivated. > > Ahead of them lay a ridge marking the boundary between the gardens > and the scrub-covered rangelands that stretched away to the mountains > of the south. As the sun rose and the day warmed, Shala and her > granddaughter redirected the flow of water coming from springs in the > base of the ridge, to their garden plots. Shala was using a water > collection and distribution system designed by Roman engineers two > thousand years earlier. Known as horizontal wells, the skills > required for their management have been passed down by word of mouth > since that time. Today, availability of labour is a limiting factor > in maintaining and operating the wells. > > This and other examples of indigenous knowledge were discussed by > more than 30 specialists at a workshop in January organized by the > North Africa and Middle Eastern Regional Office of IDRC. The Cairo > workshop focused on investigating the role of indigenous knowledge in > the management of resources in arid and semi-arid areas. It revealed > just how complex and dynamic are the systems of traditional land > management based upon local knowledge. > [more] > > I think they have wells like that in Oman too, called the Falaj > system, but I think they're a lot more ancient than the Romans. IIRC > they're engineered to allow for the curvature of the earth. > > http://www.i-sis.org.uk/desertification.php > > Sustainable Agriculture Pushing Back the Desert > > 24 Mar 2002 > > Desertification - land degrading into desert - is often blamed on > mismanagement and misuse of land. Local people are allegedly guilty > of over-farming, over-grazing and allowing their populations to > exceed the environment's capacity. Lim Li Ching contests this myth, > describing how local farmers in arid Africa are using innovative > means to farm productively without destroying the environment, and > highlights some criteria for sustainable agriculture. > [more] > > This is an online book: > > http://www.arij.org/pub/dryland/ > Dryland Farming in Palestine > Applied Research Institute - Jerusalem > Table of Contents > > Another online book - a classic: > > Dry-farming - A System Of Agriculture For Countries Under Low Rainfall > By John A. Widtsoe, A.M., Ph. D > President Of The Agricultural College Of Utah > New York > 1920 > http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010102/01010200.html > > Or: > > http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=4924 > Project Gutenberg Edition of Dry-Farming: A System of Agriculture for > Countries Under a Low Rainfall > > All in all, I fail to see "deserts" as either "worthless" or > dependent on high energy inputs, other than from the sun. I don't > even see them as deserts, really. > > Have you seen those Jamie Uys movies about the Kalahari Bushman, The > Gods Must Be Crazy? The second one opens with the words: "In this > desert that look like a paradise..." > > Best > > Keith > > > > >Hi, > > > >Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw > >product is energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make > >water, grow food in all sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert > >for ten years. It was an eye opener to realize how dependent life in > >the desert is on energy, and how everything else pales. I live in > >Saudi...number one in the world at making potable water from the > >sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export the > >excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else. > > > >Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't > >consider much this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise > >to minimize the importance of energy as the fundamental building > >block under everything else. > > > >In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the > >incident light for electricity production and to farm with the > >remaining light. Brian is right on. The future energy production for > >the world could well come from worthless deserts, with a top layer > >of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the light collectors. The > >energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves or hydrogen > >pipelines. > > > >Regards, > > > >Derek > > > > > > > Brian, > > > > > > Before you invest in "worthless" desert islands, you better make > >sure you can > > > raise food on that island. Energy alone, whether hydrogen or > >electricity, makes > > > a poor meal even for an energy guru. > > > > > > Art Krenzel, P.E. > > > PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES > > > 10505 NE 285TH Street > > > Battle Ground, WA 98604 > > > 360-666-1883 voice > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Brian > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:01 PM > > > Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded > >Sustainable Technology or > > > Conservation Investments > > > > > > > > > If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up "worthless" desert > > > land. Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy > > > being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion > > > for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere. At least > > > that's my bright idea of the past year or so. > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks > > > (anywhere in > > > > the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good > > > > sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation > > > angle? > > > > > > > > I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this > > > > area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into. > > > > > > > > For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to > > > invest > > > > in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of > > > > locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods. But > > > how > > > > to do this? > > > > > > > > I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo > > > U.S. > > > > stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping > > > there > > > > for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist > > > > principles, lower Petroleum input, etc. If one buys eggs produced > > > > from range fed chickens, at least that's something. > > > > > > > > But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any > > > > ideas, .... including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've > > > seen > > > > practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. > > > I'd > > > > be curious to hear it. > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. 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