On Thursday, May 13, 2004, at 07:13 PM, Bruce Colley wrote:
> Ed- > Your insights into these issues is helpful to me, and I'm sure, to > others. Thank you. > (I am aware of some of your work in this area, as some months ago > your partner Craig made me aware of your Master's thesis and I > actually read it!) I am happy to know that it gets read. Without putting out a book, it's always been difficult to have a thesis do something other than form the basis for one's future work in some way, or sit and collect dust on shelf. They're a ton of work, and it's nice to be able to publish online for free, and make available for free. > I would love to top Alex's 300,000 km benchmark, but it will take > some time at the rate that I drive. Same here! It's a real contradiction, I find, wanting to show high-miler success, and at the same time saying - well, yes, but we are supposed to be *not* driving the thing, using it as *little* as possible, which I myself try very hard to do. Also, I need to work with different systems and different vehicle types, since we have many domestic and import variants here in USA and Canada, especially here in Canada, it seems we have them all (not in huge numbers, but a sampling of all, pretty much). So, I can't afford to own them all long term, people want to buy them from me, I want to try a different one on SVO - it all makes it difficult to get those high miler results ourselves - which is why I'd like to see more of a database on this, in English, with some American vehicle representation, I guess, to complement the good resources that are out there, from Germany and from England. Also, it would be very good to see this undertaken as someone's academic work, and to see more testing done in an updated way via funded research here in Canada and the USA, as well as elsewhere in the world. > Like him, I am not using any WVO, as I want to take a very > conservative approach to this, and that may help to extend the life of > my engine. I see. Ok, well my comments would not apply to your case then, but you are in the minority of users so far in Canada/USA, where most want to use WVO for it's relatively low cost (but I do hope to see more people using more new oil as it becomes more affordable to do so, both for technical reasons and to extend the available regional resource). For now, though, my earlier comments related to what I feel is needed to make WVO work, and how it may or may not work with single tank systems as a generic thing, let's say, the main point being that WVO is simply not going to work as well as new oil in a single tank system, not without additional goodies on the system, most of which will be needed to get the stuff out of the tank, through the lines, through the pump and injectors, and injected into the engine in a way that will allow it to *start* in the morning. For that WVO-in-single-tank scenario, the oil, the engine type, it's condition (compression), all it's basic subsystems (starter, battery, connections, glow plugs, fuel lines, fuel filter, etc.) the ambient temperature - everything - become much more an issue than with two tank systems...or more to the point, than with single tank systems on a warm day on new oil. > However, there is another reason that I don't use WVO (and this may > be worthy of another discussion thread.) In my work, I am attempting > to develop and espouse a model of worldwide personal transportation > sustainability, and also practice what I preach. The limited volume > of WVO simply does not lend itself to such a model. IMHO it ought to be *included* in the model. With our current culture and food culture, there is a lot of it out there, and there are serious concerns about where it goes once it's been in a fryer. So, it's good for now. For long term, large scale use (and I've just been having a very good discussion with Michael Briggs at the University of Vermont about this, do you know him?) then there are all sorts of production models and issues to discuss - a very large topic. Why do we fry? Why do we consume so much animal fat? What about trans fats? What about GMO's, BSE, avian flu, etc. etc. Why is this idea of eating more cheaply-made and cheaply-sold animal fat now being extended to places like China? How are those animals raised? What are they fed? (soy meal?, WVO?). What are the health costs of all that? What are the subsidies, the economic externalities, blatant and hidden? What other things are overdue for change in the overall system to make it more sustainable, and what does that do to the price and availability of new oil, and what new oil(s) and production systems could be put in place, if those changes occur? All sorts of structural, gigantic social/political/agricultural/economic issues! > I have serious doubts as to whether even Canola, sunflower, camelina > sativa or any other annual row crop can be justified in such a > worldwide model, as these would compete with food crops if produced on > a very large scale, they use considerable energy to produce, and > require water, weeding, and pest control. When there are hardy > perennial oil producing plants like Jatropha that grow for up to 50 > years in otherwise u Very true. Jatropha and other oils that are inedibles and grow on marginal land, or that have other attributes, should be used whenever possible. Great stuff happening in India, South America, and so on on that, and we'll hope to see much more, also coconut etc. But, we can't grow all that in colder climates, and we can't do without crop rotation, so row crops are not necessarily a bad thing if they are not too hard on the land, bring other benefits like a deep root (brassicas, sunflower) to break up hard pan, and improve drainage, produce a good amount of biomass for re-incorporation to the soil, serve to remediate the soil at contaminated sites (mustard), provide alternatives to pesticides (mustard meal), marginal or dry land (mustard) ..... and especially if the row crop is peas and the oilseed is grown between the rows at the same time, as one example, and you thereby eliminate the need for herbicide, get the same crop yield of the food crop as always, produce enough oil to offset what is used in the production of the crop (at least), and also get the presscake to put back on the land as organic fertilizer! Not mention there's always broadcast seeding, solid seeding, no-till systems, etc. with pros and cons, of course. > I am also approaching the longevity issue from an entirely > different angle. I have developed a generator powered by a Kubota > diesel engine. The engine was sent to Elsbett in Germany for > conversion to SVO and I am very pleased with its performance. Interesting, and yes, Craig had mentioned this to me earlier - I have had the same idea and intend to work on that as well. > The generator can be used for stand alone power generation, but was > really developed with the idea of incorporating it into a hybrid > electric vehicle. Yes, also very much of interest to me, and mentioned earlier to me - how is that going? > With such a system, one can get into a vehicle and drive away on > battery power while using the propulsion battery pack to preheat the > oil, or better still, preheat the entire engine, as considerable > engine wear and emissions occur when starting a cold engine. The > engine is then run at a nearly constant power level that is at or > close to optimum levels for fuel economy and emissions. Needless to > say, engine longevity in such an engine run in this manner could be > very impressive. Absolutely. Is all of this a commercial project, or will you be doing all this as a non-profit enterprise in future? Either way, congratulations on bringing it along, and keep in touch - we have very similar interests on these topics. > As experience with gasoline hybrids has proved, high fuel economy is > also achieved, and a diesel hybrid c > Bruce Colley Sustainable Energy Project > www.sustainableenergyproject.org Absolutely agree with you on the need for the small diesel-electric hybrids in lighter vehicle designs, and on greater use of SVO, and on taking really hard looks at production systems, Bruce. Hope to meet with you when I next get down to the area to visit with Craig, Shane, Jennifer, Hope, and all. Say, will you be able to make it to the SVO event at SolWest? It would be great if you could, and bring your genset and the car. I need to add information on this event to our site, but if everyone can help spread the word, Jennifer (a different Jennifer) at Solwest (which is held the end of July in John Dday, Oregon) is helping us organize an SVO car drive-in - we hope to make this an annual event, a car show and engine show as part of the already-really-good and great-fun renewable energy event at Solwest. We hope lots of folks can make it and turn it into a major Western venue/event for SVO folks. There is also a ride-sharing thing online, that we can all use to offer or get a ride, so car pool to the event on SVO, bring an EV, check out all the great renewable energy stuff and workshops, camp out, and sample the *fantastic* Sunday brunch! See: http://www.solwest.org/ Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 2:02 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? > > > Ok, thanks again -yes, it's likely that Alex does use only new oil, I > believe that is what is recommended for that system, and it would be > affordable in Germany especially for him to do so, and they do have > it > in bulk, for sale, at their location (and SVO is for sale at quite a > few other bulk locations and pumps in Germany) > > ...it's not taxed as fuel, considered to be the same benefits, more > or > less as biodiesel, whereas petrodiesel is heavily taxed, so of the > three new oil (SVO) is the cheapest (and maybe overall, also the > least > subsidized?!) > > In Canada and the USA, of course, new oil is still more money than > diesel fuel, but actually the gap is closing, so perhaps it's > possible > for more people to start looking at greater use of new, cold pressed > oils (not soy) here, or perhaps at least looking at a blend of new > oil > (Costco Canola, or Sunflower) and good WVO, as a cost-effective and > technically better option than just using WVO. > > If it's affordable, do it, I would have to say, and especially if > your > best local option for WVO, after really checking around, is still not > so good. > > Blending with new oil will thin the WVO, and the cold pressed is > nice - > also the new food grade oil (not cold pressed) maybe has a few > advantages, as well. It has after all been degummed, bleached, > deodorized, winterized - the Wonder Bread of cooking oils...Not so > tasty, but good for a fryer and pretty good stuff for blending with > WVO, IMHO, for reduced viscosity, FFA compensation/correction to > closer > to neutral pH, etc. > > > New cold pressed high oleic sunflower and WVO, 50/50, would be good. > Also it would be good to see more happening with Camelina Sativa > (false > flax, pleasure-of-gold), since it can be grown in the same field at > the > same time as other crops (peas for example) eliminating the use of > herbicide via it's shading/weed suppression between rows, and you can > get the same yield of peas as always, produce both oil energy crop > and > field crop, and get a light oil suitable for blending and helpful in > cold weather. > > And BTW, the level of sophistication and engineering that you > mentioned > is proportionate to the type of conversion: > > - extended time glow plugs would be single tank, yes. Not needed for > two-tank. > - injector modifications and rechipping or other modification of the > fuel injection computer would be needed in some instances, not in > others. > > What *is* needed for all conversions, we feel, and what we provide > with our kits, is a very large filter area, for long filter element > life, and cost effectively done, *even when* using WVO that has not > been pre-filtered > > Also, for the WVO, a water separator is a very good idea, of course > (integrated into the onboard fuel processor is even better, since > it's > then compact and easily installed - that's what we provide) > > - a robust, solid state electric heater with enough output to > effectively heat the oil to ~ 70C; > > - a coolant-heated SVO filter; > > - larger fuel line for the SVO (we now use 1/2" insulhose on all > kits, to provide unrestricted flow in all cases), > > OPTIONALLY, > > , an extra inline electric heater, a tank heater (electric pad, 12V > or > 120V, or coolant operated, like our Hotstk); > > - full-heated-path SVO line, and so on. The requirements for the > optional items vary with the application. > > How well single tank systems will work depends on the level of > conversion done, the options used, the oil used, the climate, and the > engine type. We are doing some single tank systems, just looking into > doing single tank TDi, especially in California and other places > where > the climate and the availability of good liquid WVO or "flush oil" > from > the large food oil processors will support that application. > > The warm climate will help you next winter, Bruce, but I think it's > going to be important to realize the need for oil that will stay > liquid > and combust easily with that system. > > It's not the same at all, trying to start an engine on a nice light > new oil, versus some partly hydrogenated WVO...the degree of > degradation will be even more important to be aware of. > > keep us all posted, and let us know when you've topped Alex's > numbers! > > cheers, > > > Edward Beggs > http://www.biofuels.ca > > > On Thursday, May 13, 2004, at 09:51 AM, Bruce Colley wrote: > >> Ed- >> It is a single tank system. I believe that he uses only rapeseed >> oil, and no WVO. >> Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project >> www.sustainableenergyproject.org >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc >> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 6:47 AM >> Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? >> >> >> Thanks, Bruce. Was that single tank or two-tank? >> >> Edward Beggs >> http://www.biofuels.ca >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 12, 2004, at 11:15 PM, Bruce Colley wrote: >> >>> Alexander Noack, senior engineer at Elsbett, recently told me >>> that >>> they disassembled his Jetta TDI engine after 300,000 km (186,000 mi.) >>> with the following results: >>> -No detectible cylinder wear >>> -No injector coking >>> -Overall excellent condition >>> I think that this speaks to the validity of the Elsbett >>> system: Electric preheater, fuel-coolant heat exchanger, modification >>> of injectors, upgrading of glow plugs, and modification of engine >>> computer control settings. If an engine/injector pump doesn't lend >>> itself to viable conversion, then they don't attempt to convert it. >>> If they do, then they engineer and test the system to verify proper >>> operation. So far, I am impressed by my Elsbett Jetta TDI >>> conversion, >>> but it is quite recent and I haven't gone through the winter yet. >>> Bruce Colley Sustainable Energy Project >>> www.sustainableenergyproject.org >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc >>> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 6:25 AM >>> Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? >>> >>> >>> Tom: >>> >>> First, I will say that we have always stated that WVO (Waste >>> Vegetable >>> Oil) or new plant oil conversion systems are to be considered >>> experimental and do not have millions of miles of testing that >>> biodiesel has had, at least not yet. >>> >>> The interest and the funding shifted to biodiesel early on, it >>> seems, >>> after the tests in the early 80's, which went more or less along >>> the >>> lines of: >>> >>> 1.Fill tank of then-current technology direct injection engine with >>> sunflower or soy oil (most often, it seems) and see what happens. >>> >>> 2. Wait for a high incidence of failures. >>> >>> 3. Write the report: "does not work very well or for very long". >>> >>> I have no doubt that the researchers were sincere and reported >>> accurately, but at least in the studies from that era that I have >>> read >>> there were some common themes which are not reflective of the way >>> things are done now which are thought to improve the results. >>> >>> Notably: >>> >>> - there never seems to be mention of preheating the vegetable oil, >>> to >>> reduce viscosity and thus make it easier on the lift pump, >>> injection >>> pump, and also improve atomisaiton. That's the single biggest >>> change, >>> which seems to improve results. >>> >>> - the oils chosen were often less than ideal. According to the >>> information I have, oils such as Canola/rapeseed/mustard, coconut, >>> high >>> oleic sunflower (recent) might have yielded better results. >>> >>> - the engines were often older type direct injection engines that >>> did >>> not have the sort of (with variations, of course) two-stage (pilot >>> injection) high pressure, computer controlled systems we have >>> today, >>> nor the sort of combustion chamber designs that exist today. They >>> were >>> of course also not indirect injection engines (which many say will >>> give >>> better results on plant oils than direct injection). There have >>> been >>> quite successes in the use of indirect injection engines. >>> >>> - there was no mention made of using two tanks, for easier >>> starting, >>> operation of the engine on lighter fuel (diesel or biodiesel) until >>> it >>> was hot, and no purge cycle, again on the lighter and more >>> combustible >>> fuel, before shutdown. >>> >>> - also there is no mention of use of techniques such as blends of >>> plant >>> oils with solvents and cosolvents, in combination with preheating, >>> as >>> was done in some of the more recent, and very successful, trials of >>> the >>> ACREVO study, which is on our web site (blending 9% ethanol into >>> rapeseed oil, preheating to 80C, and use in a small displacement >>> direct >>> injection engine yielded very good results) >>> >>> Regarding Shaine Tyson's comments, I am not sure how recent the >>> study >>> is that is mentioned, but if recent, then perhaps to put in proper >>> context, I'd ask this: >>> >>> - were there a lot of premature failures documented, or is it just >>> that >>> these are mostly relatively recent conversions (most SVO >>> conversions >>> and kits having been done only since 2000 or so) and so the miles >>> have >>> not been accumulated yet, and there is insufficient data to come to >>> any >>> conclusion about the effectiveness of the use of, in particular, >>> preheating and two-tank systems, for DI and IDI engines? If there >>> was a >>> high incidence of failures, were the causes examined? What were the >>> failures modes? What would they be attributed to? If examined, were >>> solutions sought? >>> >>> RE: "my list" - I don't *have* a list - that's the point - we need >>> one >>> at this point in time. And, BTW, dozens of examples would be a >>> decent >>> start, but not enough to really show anything. It'd be a start, >>> though, >>> if we did have a good list of at least that, a few dozen examples >>> of >>> SVO high-milers. That's what I was looking for help in compiling. >>> It's >>> mentioned now and then, and we see a few attempts, but I have not >>> yet >>> seen a serious effort at compiling a list of documented >>> high-mileage >>> successes, in the way that positive results were compiled for >>> biodiesel, for example, while that was under development. It'd be >>> nice >>> to see it get a little more attention, especially in English, and >>> especially in North America, I think. >>> >>> RE: "something funny" at 100,000-150,000 miles...well, no, I don't >>> think there is any magic number: we have all seen the reports and >>> horror stories about engines being ruined by use of plant oils in >>> short >>> order - so many hours, so many miles - again, mostly of the sort >>> and >>> from the era and conditions mentioned above >>> >>> ...but then we seem now to also be hearing more and more of better >>> long >>> term results than predicted - so far, too much anecdotally. >>> >>> That needs to be examined in more detail. If there are getting to >>> be a >>> good number of successes in teh longer term, how are they being >>> accomplished? What are the best practices? Of course, I have my own >>> ideas on that, as do many others, and some have been incorporated >>> into >>> kits, some would be related to engine type, conditions of use, type >>> of >>> fuel oil used, type of lubricating oil used, and so on. >>> >>> Those need to be examined again - if something seems to be >>> working >>> (i.e. there is progress being made), then find out what it is. If >>> there >>> are still, after doing those things, problem areas, identify them, >>> see >>> what can be done about them, or might be, or identify the knowledge >>> gaps. >>> >>> You know, SVO has been written into the European Union rules as an >>> acceptable alternative fuel, alongside many others, including >>> biodiesel. >>> >>> An original Elsbett engine in a Mercedes has recently, it is >>> reported, >>> gone over one million (!!) kilometers on vegetable oil. That's was >>> a >>> direct injection engine, and it is also said that much of the >>> technology used in that engine's injector and combustion chamber >>> design >>> found its way into the TDI many years later! >>> >>> RE: the rumours of "horrors of TDI" conversion....I am not sure >>> what >>> you refer to here, I have not heard much of this. I do know that >>> the >>> TDI runs cool, does not generate a lot of waste heat, and so if run >>> under light loads on poorly heated oil, that could be a problem. I >>> have >>> been told they have a tendency to "coke up", even on diesel fuel - >>> at >>> least that's what my VW-dealer-mechanic friend told me, and I >>> suspect >>> that would be worse if they are run under light loads or in the >>> city >>> a >>> lot. So, the preheating, electric preheating, and two tank (on >>> diesel >>> or biodiesel until the engine gets hotter), would help in that, I >>> would >>> think. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Edward Beggs >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, May 11, 2004, at 04:23 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> >>>> Ed- >>>> >>>> I think I should step gingerly here, I know you promote WVO >>>> conversion >>>> systems. However, I refer to Shaine Tyson, late of the National >>>> Renewable Energy >>>> Laboratory who gave a talk in Connecticut last year, stating that in >>>> all of the >>>> national research, only one truck was found that had lasted 150,000 >>>> miles on >>>> SVO. How does this square with your list? Are you starting out with >>>> dozens of >>>> examples, or is it a short list? Something funny happen over 100,000 >>>> and under >>>> 150,000, or is this technology particularly hard on direct injection >>>> engines? >>>> We want to know the real value of this technology. Are the rumors >>>> about the >>>> horrors of TDI conversions true? Why, what goes wrong? >>>> >>>> Tom Leue >>>> >>>> In a message dated 5/11/04 2:10:49 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I often get asked how many engines, specifically modern direct >>>>> injection engines, I know of, that have gone more than the magic >>>>> number >>>>> (for some reason) of 100,000 miles (yes, miles, not kilometers, >>>>> please...so, let's say over 160,000 km) >>>>> >>>>> I know I could spend hours scouring the databases, such as they >>>>> exist, >>>>> translating from German sites, etc. etc...but if anyone needs a >>>>> good >>>>> research project for academic work, this is one!! >>>>> >>>>> Or, if you just want to send me notice of examples of such that you >>>>> are >>>>> aware of, please do! >>>>> >>>>> Please exclude old Mercedes.....I know there are lots of those that >>>>> have gone that far...I am looking for TDI's, modern trucks, >>>>> equivalent >>>>> hours on gensets or tractors (let's see...1600 hours at 100 >>>>> km/h....ok, >>>>> let's say over 1600 hours), etc. >>>>> >>>>> I'll compile these as they come in, unless someone out there can >>>>> set >>>>> up >>>>> a self-admin database for us, which would be a heck of a lot >>>>> easier, >>>>> and more accessible for all.... >>>>> >>>>> The SVO 100,000 Mile Club Database.....anyone up for doing that? >>>>> >>>>> We can host it on our server space if need be, I think. >>>>> >>>>> Spread the word? Help get it going? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you! >>>>> >>>>> Edward Beggs >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------- >>>> Homestead Inc. >>>> www.yellowbiodiesel.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >>>> ---------------------~--> >>>> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 >>>> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> - >>>> ~-> >>>> >>>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>> >>>> Biofuels list archives: >>>> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ >>>> >>>> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >>>> To unsubscribe, send an email to: >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> Yahoo! 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