Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country

[Tom Irwin]

Greetings All,

 

I would like things to be as black and white as you have written. Unfortunately I see many areas that are gray. At what point in time is a childs responsible for their actions. Many laws say 18 years old. What do ou do in the case of children having children? What is your solution for victims of rape? What are your solutions for people who get Aids from tainted blood. What about children of mothers infected with Aids? I believe adults should be responsible for their actions but we traditionally apply a different set of expectations to children and victims of crime. What about the woman who become pregnant from sperm donated at a sperm back? There have been some courts that have ruled that the donor has to pay child support? Is this right? Good stewardship and responsibility are good civilized values but we live with barbarians and barbaric institutions. How do you live right and deal with the mad dogs of our world?

 

Just some ramblings,

 

Tom Irwin

 

---

From: Nancy Canning [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:26:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country

Good stewardship, responsibility, and justifications of why we can't be
stewards, and be responsible seem to go together. Nobody wants to be
responsible, and we hide so well behind our justifications. After all..it's
a woman's body, it's my car that needs fuel, it's my building that needs the
forest, it's my job that takes the clean air, we are all king babies, it's
me, my needs, my wants, me, me, me.

Lets take the good old drunk, who chooses to drink and ends up in a head
on collision killing. He is ultimately responsible for his actions, drunk
or sober. Just as we all are responsible for our actions. The alcoholic
wants instant gratification and finds alcohol his tool. His choice is not
one of drinking or not drinking, because that choice has been removed from
his book. He has crossed the line and once crossed, the choice is removed.
The alcoholic's choice is whether or not to stay sober.

For a man and woman to consent in having a relationship, even the quickie
instant gratification relationship. It takes two for consensual sex, the
line has been crossed. That couple has consented to give their bodies. In
that action, whether it be one for instant gratification or a lifetime of
marriage, They are responsibility of their actions. If that act, produces a
child, the consenting couple is 100% responsible to that life. Like the
alcoholic who has consented to the drink, their are consequences to their
action, and their choice has been limited because they made a decision for
consensual sex. They chose to give their bodies. If a child results from
their act; any reasoning or justification killing that life, any life, is
not their choice. That choice, like the alcoholic deciding to drink, has
been removed from the list of what we can do. Now, there is responsibility
to the life that was created. The ultimate responsibility is to life. And
Yes, they can choose to justify their need for instant gratification behind
many different doors, one of which is abortion. And then their is the
victims of a rape( I say victims, because if a child results, it too is a
victim.) But two wrongs don't ever make a right.

Instant gratification, around the world has gotten our entire community
into as my mother use to say one mell of a hess. Stewardship!! yes, we need
stewardship from teaching our children that abstinence of sex, abstinence of
any abuse of our bodies and environment is what is called for.

God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage.
Respect for what God has given, beginning with our bodies is the first
start. The mentality of "right to life" begins with Stewardship. We have
to instruct our children to be first stewards over their body, to honor and
respect it, and teaching them then to be stewards over their environment
will be much easier. In your own words: "Oh wait. It's human selfishness,
"superiority" and indifference to the rest of the world's creations that has
brought us to today's fossil fuel dilemma." Today's dilemma began with
generations being taught that their needs come first, I want what I want
when I want it, and it's okay to justify behavior by avoiding
responsibility, from the simple act of sex, to the worlds problems. We all
want to sit in the victim's chair and point our fingers. Well, when you
point your finger at someone or something, there are always 3 pointing back
to you.

So where do we start to clean it up? Do we begin behaving responsible
and begin teaching tools which will help the next generation? Or do we just
attach the problem with a protest for saving a snail's life, or fossil fuel
issues, to avoid the bigger picture? Nobody wants to tackle the bigger
picture, that begins at conception. It's so much easier to justify our
behavior, to pass the buck, to blame, and point fingers. For me, the choice
begins with respecting life, all life. For you see, I am no different than
the murderer sitting on death row, or the drunk choosing to stay sober.

From the choice Adam had, which he chose to point his finger and blame
Eve, to the present discussion, Let's all grow up and begin teaching
responsibility. But Baby, it don't begin when your driving a car. That is
my point.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 11:13 PM
Subject: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re:
[Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country


> You twist the argument Nancy, and intentionally barb it with a
> misconstruction of what others actually believe. I wonder what a reader is
> expected to construe from such an act?
>
> In the first place, there are enormous "herds" of people who believe in
> the right to life for all life. (In case you missed it, that is "ALL" life
> and all species, not just decision by "short straw.")
>
> What it sounds like to me is that you are somehow willing to relegate all
> of your god's creations to a consecutive order of importance, or
> unimportance, depending upon which end of the ladder you're starting from.
>
> I wonder what he or she would think about the indifferent
> anhilation/extinction of one, multiple and eventually thousands of species
> by another, much less the eventual extermination of one specie's own self
> as a result of the choice to exhibit no forethought for others or anything
> beyond itself? Hmmmmm..... What rubric might you be praying under were
> your Jesus to have conducted his affairs in the same manner? The First
> Southern Baptist Church of Me?" (Perhaps the Jesus part is a bit
> presumptive. But then again, that camp often leaves a large, debris strewn
> swath in its wake, much as did you.)
>
> (If Jesus only had an Evinrude and a few sticks of dynamite..........,
> maybe he would have had no need for miracles?)
>
> But as to a creator, or god, or whatever your preference might be, might
> his or her thoughts be that everything has its place and humans think
> wrongly that it's their "right" to pick and choose which species to
> relegate into oblivion? Or is it more probable that his or her creations
> weren't quite so perfect as originally thought and the intervention of
> humans is entirely necessary in order to straighten out all those initial
> mistakes?
>
> The latter is all rather doubtful. More like humans have a god complex and
> tend to try and reinforce their "superiority" ("dominion") at every
> opportune and inopportune moment possible, in every venue, whether
> "requisite" or not. Funny that "dominion" thing. All rather like kicking a
> dead horse to prove one is still in "control," when all it proves is just
> how little in control one really is. The horse may not kick back, but
> neither will it pull the wagon any further..............
>
> A lot to be said for good stewardship........
>
> Secondly? I don't think there is or needs to be a secondly. Everyone would
> really like to live in a world where every child is wanted. Where the
> social and economic pressures don't exist that give women, men and even
> children cause to terminate pregnancies early. Everyone would like to have
> a peaceful existence where there are no demands placed upon them other
> than to enjoy the sheer beauty of being alive - no kissing up or being
> subservient to warlords, multi-nationals, politicians of particular design
> or the obnoxious manager at the local five and dime, Mal-Wart or Bob
> Evans.
>
> In case you missed that chapter in your biblical studies, there was a time
> when that was the norm. They called it Eden (at least by one biblical
> account) And then humans fouled the water, shat in their own bed and
> bespoiled all the good that they had, thinking that there was something
> more out there that they needed to know or somehow they could improve on
> what was already as good as it could ever be.
>
> That should sound familiar, as we continue to do the same thing to this
> very day. One definition of insanity is "doing the same thing, over and
> over again, with expectation of achieving a different result." That
> doesn't speak well of us as a "superior" species.
>
> Frankly Nancy? One would tend to believe that you need to find your
> answers in broader places rather than being content in painting other
> humans with the singularly narrow brush from your black and white bucket,
> especially those whom you not only don't know, but who's circumstances you
> are apparently oblivious to in some part.
>
> Maybe when you can empathize with tens of millions of men, women and
> children who have precious little control over their own fate and are
> issued death sentences by presidential proxy - whether that be withholding
> family planning funds that provide condoms or initiating international and
> national policies of embargos, wars, protectionism, corporatism, cronyism
> and elitism that strip away lives at every stage of what should be a
> wonderful living process - maybe then you'll not be so quick to assign
> attributes that don't exist to others and start seeing "right to life" as
> more than just a singular issue.
> .................................
> And now back to our regularly scheduled biofuels programming.
>
> Oh wait. It's human selfishness, "superiority" and indifference to the
> rest of the world's creations that has brought us to today's fossil fuel
> dilemma.
>
> So I guess there's no need to change the channel at all........
>
> Todd Swearingen
> .....................................................
>
> "Against abortion? Get a vasectomy."
> ...........
>
> Nancy Canning wrote:
>
>> I agree with you Gustl. Yet, I am amazed and the quanity of people who
>> will uphold and fight for some snails life, being of great importance and
>> right to live, yet believe it is okay to kill babies. That the Child is
>> of no value and has no right to life.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "des" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To:
>> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 6:56 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
>>
>>
>>> Thank you! That was the first message in this thread I found worth
>>> saving for future reference. Too much out there, (government, business
>>> and religion) has propagated the illusion of separation, competition and
>>> isolation... We could easily forget that we do all come from the same
>>> Source, sad to say though, that when mankind tries to give that Source a
>>> name, religion develops, and separation of our unity follows.
>>>
>>> doug swanson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hallo Whomever,
>>>>
>>>> Sunday, 31 July, 2005, 18:03:48, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wwrc> In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better
>>>> than Wwrc> us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We
>>>> Trust".
>>>>
>>>> "In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited."? I assume that you have
>>>> NEVER listened to Rush Limbaugh or his ilk then? Jerry Falwell? Pat
>>>> Robertson?
>>>>
>>>> "In GOD We Trust"? The qualifier "Somewhat" does not appear there
>>>> between "We" and "Trust". Those trusting in God are those rejecting
>>>> the ways of the world and following the ways of the Lord. That would
>>>> be those in peace churches and not involving themselves in national
>>>> politics and perhaps not even state politics. I assume you mean "In
>>>> the bible we trust" instead, with the caveat of your own particular
>>>> interpretations of that and including the old testament which has,
>>>> according to virtually all biblical scholars of the Christian bent
>>>> been fulfilled and the jots and tittles have been changed.
>>>>
>>>> It is very interesting watching the contortions of the theologians
>>>> trying to make the black words in the bible match up to the red words
>>>> when they flatly contradict them in so many cases. If they trusted in
>>>> God they would have the ability to get to their knowledge without the
>>>> aid of such an inadequate medium as the written word. It is not so
>>>> interesting watching them pulling verses or partial verses out of
>>>> context and trying to warp them to their own particular beliefs. They
>>>> would rather define truth to match their own limited understanding
>>>> rather than take the trouble to bring their understanding in line with
>>>> truth. Makes one ill.
>>>>
>>>> I generally attempt to be more kind in my observations but I really
>>>> get weary watching people serving two masters while claiming to be
>>>> serving only one. That which is good, right and true speaks for
>>>> itself and the rest requires justification. There are a lot of
>>>> "Christians" who are going to be justifying their heads off and a lot
>>>> who don't call themselves Christian who won't need to do so. Law vs
>>>> Spirit. There are a lot of folks out there who may have read but have
>>>> either forgotten or do not understand MT 25:12, LK 13:25, LK 13:27 and
>>>> JN 5:42. Perhaps they just think claiming to believe something is
>>>> tautologous with demonstrating the fruits of the belief. Fruits?
>>>> GAL 5:22. You won't find a lot of those fruits in politics whether
>>>> left, right or center.
>>>>
>>>> Before I forget: MT 7:3-5
>>>>
>>>> There is a great difference between reading the words and knowing what
>>>> they mean, understanding them. Living them is even more difficult. I
>>>> have failed somewhat in this unkind mail but am prepared to live
>>>> and/or die with the consequences of my actions and without excuses or
>>>> justification. I hope all those upholding life with one hand and
>>>> activily participating in or concurring with the dealing out of death
>>>> with the other are just as ready. Blue or red or whatever shade.
>>>>
>>>> Happy Happy,
>>>>
>>>> Gustl
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Biofuel mailing list
>>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>>
>>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>>
>>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>>> messages):
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>



_______________________________________________
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

 

 

_______________________________________________
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/