We need a good laugh every so often! mark manchester wrote:
>I just passed out on the floor rolling, thanks for the laugh. >Jesse > > > >>From: Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:28:57 -0400 >>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] MIKesol pretreatment and washing >> >>Dear Mr. Smartypants Street: >> >>Ebay is selling THE EXACT SAME Orthagonal magnets for 399.00! >> >>So your little scheme won't work. >> >>We're on to you. >> >> >> >>Joe Street wrote: >> >> >> >>>Outrage is not allowed. >>> >>>BTW kitty litter is EXPENSIVE. Orthagonal magnets are permanent and >>>work better anyways. A one time up front investment of 1000 dollars or 4 >>>easy payments of 599.99 and you can make all the fuel you will ever need >>>from ditch swill. Forget about veggie oil. Those days are over. >>> >>>Taking orders now....and if you call now you get a free magnetic water >>>softener. Limited time offer. Call now. >>> >>>J >>> >>>Mike Weaver wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Well, I for one am completely outraged about every single post in the >>>>last two years. >>>>Besides, if you people haven't figured out you can wash biodisel with >>>>kitty litter and skip the water all together, well, it's not as if I >>>>didn't warn you. >>>>I will be taking out a patent on this and selling it on Ebay so the list >>>>and JtF will soon be irrelevant. >>>> >>>>Mike "soon to be a large faceless corporation" Weaver >>>> >>>> >>>>Keith Addison wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Chris Bennett was certainly angry. He posted his last message and I >>>>>just got the notice that he unsubscribed shortly afterwards, before I >>>>>posted my reply, below. That's ridiculous. Oh well. Best of luck to >>>>>him. >>>>> >>>>>Best >>>>> >>>>>Keith >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Hello Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Keith Addison wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You seem rather cross, Chris. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>Not at all, lol, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>:-) If you insist. Try reading it again (like you had to read what >>>>>>I'd said again - but I think you should read that again too). Very >>>>>>common to back off and use an lol as a cover when people overreact. >>>>>> >>>>>>There's a wide disconnect between what I said and your angry response >>>>>>to it, and now you're trying to stretch what I said to cover the gap. >>>>>>Lots of confusion as a result, and my original post that you're >>>>>>interpreting every which way rather than reading the damn' thing has >>>>>>gone missing in action, so I'll put it back, here it is: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Something to add might be whether Magnesol really does give the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>same results. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>If it's time-saving that's the aim there are ways round that without >>>>>>>becoming more dependent on anyone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I don't accept it gives better-quality results unless maybe you're >>>>>>>starting with a poorly completed product, in which case the magnesol >>>>>>>is just masking the problem (like mist-washing). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>You can easily get within the standard specs with well-made homebrew >>>>>>>biodiesel plus a few hours spent stir-washing it. If you GC'd the >>>>>>>result and compared it with a sample of the same batch of homebrew >>>>>>>dry-washed with Magnesol, what would it show? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Has anybody seen such results? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Okay? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I just get the impression >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>:-) It's wasn't a very impressionistic piece of writing. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>that it was you opinion that using anything other than water for >>>>>>>cleaning biodiesel was a big 'no no'. The way your response came >>>>>>>across read to me like that. I apologise if I misread you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Apology accepted, but you still are misreading it. If you still see >>>>>>it as a dismissal rather than a question then I'd have to ask why you >>>>>>dislike the question so much. >>>>>> >>>>>>Biofuels makes the best sense when production is localised and >>>>>>therefore necessarily adapted to local conditions (even the US >>>>>>military thinks that these days). That means the Appropriate >>>>>>Technology approach, and *that* means K.I.S.S., on the one hand, and >>>>>>optimal use of locally available, renewable resources on the other, >>>>>>such as water - whether it's scarce or not is a local condition and >>>>>>doesn't change the principle. >>>>>> >>>>>>So, yes, there will be resistance to relying on anything extra that >>>>>>doesn't meet those criteria, especially if top-quality fuel >>>>>>production is a simple matter without it. >>>>>> >>>>>>If you're not aware of this background then that's your problem. >>>>>>Finding it introduced when you're not expecting it may not be a >>>>>>pleasant surprise, but concluding that it means we don't do biofuels >>>>>>discussions here and you might as well go somewhere else with your >>>>>>nose in the air is kind of preposterous. But it's up to you of >>>>>>course, feel free. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>I reached no such conclusion. I expressed a valid doubt and asked >>>>>>>>for some evidence. The burden of proof is not on me nor on the >>>>>>>>consumer when the makers of a commercial product make claims for >>>>>>>>it, it's on them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>"I don't accept it gives better-quality results unless maybe you're >>>>>>>starting with a poorly completed product, in which case the magnesol >>>>>>>is just masking the problem (like mist-washing)." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I read this as you opinion >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Not so. If I'd said it doesn't give better-quality results, that >>>>>>would be an opinion. But I said I didn't accept it and asked for test >>>>>>results that would tell one way or the other. That's a question. "I >>>>>>expressed a valid doubt and asked for some evidence." What you read >>>>>>into that, what it suggests to you, the impression you get from it, >>>>>>is that I'm rejecting discussion of it. That's the sort of logic you >>>>>>get from the Red Queen in Alice. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>being that the results from my experiments were some how 'made up'. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Why not try reading what's there instead of what you're reading into >>>>>>it that isn't there? You're just cross because you saw it as an >>>>>>attack on your experiments and maybe on you. Go and find where I said >>>>>>that, or even implied it. In the following post I asked you about >>>>>>your processing, but I didn't say it was crap. Why are you protesting >>>>>>so loudly? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>My results showed that I can wash my product quicker with magnesol >>>>>>>and that this is the result I am looking for with my process in mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>... "my product"... "quicker". But you haven't convinced yet that >>>>>>you're getting good completion with your product. Let's have a look >>>>>>at that now. I asked: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>Would you say that you've reached a stage with learning the process >>>>>>>>where you can easily make homebrew biodiesel yourself that gets >>>>>>>>within the standard specs with a few hours spent stir-washing it so >>>>>>>>you can do some comparative tests yourself? I didn't get the >>>>>>>>impression that was established with the results you gave us, >>>>>>>>please correct me if I'm wrong. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>I have indeed. If you refer to the fact that I over 'lyed' the test >>>>>>>batches then the reason for this was quite deliberate. In the event >>>>>>>of a misreading, miscalculation or mismeasurement during a process >>>>>>>then the water washing stage offers the ability to correct the >>>>>>>oversight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>If the mis-whatever results in poor completion it will only mask it, >>>>>>not correct it. Like mist-washing. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I wanted to be sure that a magnesol wash could cope with this. If a >>>>>>>measured dose of magnesol can cope with a soapy batch diesel then it >>>>>>>can certanly cope with a good batch. If I had not done this then I >>>>>>>would have had no 'safety factor' in my conclusions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>You're trying to cope with soap that shouldn't be there if you're >>>>>>getting good completion. Good processing is the safety factor, not >>>>>>different post-processing techniques. >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm beginning to think you can't answer my question. Have you made >>>>>>standard spec biodiesel that you can stir wash without problems or >>>>>>not? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I agree its up to the manufacturer to provide evidence, and they >>>>>>>comissioned a report to find the answers, it is readlily available >>>>>>>in the public domain. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>But it's not my job to find it there. I didn't propose Magnesol, you >>>>>>did. I asked. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>You're siding with risk assessment, we go by the Precautionary >>>>>>>>Principle here, we ask questions, and "is that not why we are >>>>>>>>here!!!!!". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>As do I. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>If you were you wouldn't have said it's up to me to provide the >>>>>>evidence that the manufacturer's claims aren't true. That's akin as >>>>>>saying there's no evidence that "it" (whatever, thalidomide, DDT, >>>>>>Ford Pintos, whatever) does any harm rather than requiring evidence >>>>>>that it doesn't do any harm. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I am a professional engineer and havent got by on taking things for >>>>>>>granted and not requiring proof of principles when integrating new >>>>>>>techniques, processes, and technologies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>That's a different matter. There are probably just as many >>>>>>professional engineers on both sides of the issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>You say 'we ask questions'? But what questions have been asked? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Well, hell, how many times do I have to ask them? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I have simply made available to a group of people who are interested >>>>>>>in biofuels my results from utilising a variation in the process, >>>>>>>nothing more, nothing less. I would expect a better way forward for >>>>>>>the current biofuel technologies would be to discuss these >>>>>>>variations, and see if they are a step forwards, or indeed backwards. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>But God forbid that anyone should ask questions you didn't expect eh? >>>>>>We have to just accept it without question or it would be, what would >>>>>>it be, "negative"? Counterproductive? >>>>>> >>>>>>Here we all are to investigate and ask questions but if someone asks >>>>>>questions that's not what we're here for? You're making my head hurt. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Your previusly quoted comment suggests >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Please stop telling me what I "suggested" and how you read it and >>>>>>what impression you got from it, it's a straightforward question, not >>>>>>the Rosetta Stone. Why are you wriggling so much? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>that you have no belief that this is the case here, and you admitted >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Admitted? I wasn't aware I was accused of anything. Who's talking >>>>>>about "belief"? Is Magnesol a religion now? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>yourself that you have seen no evidence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>I ASKED for evidence. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I feel this is not the way to move forward. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Let's try yet again, I'll shout the whole thing, with screamers: >>>>>> >>>>>>I ASKED FOR EVIDENCE!!! >>>>>> >>>>>>You're kicking up a smokescreen. I wonder why? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>Who's trying to stop you? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>I wasnt aware that anybody was! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>You suggested I was, or at least that's how I read it, I distinctly >>>>>>got that impression. (Did you enjoy that?) But have a look at what >>>>>>you said: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>So personally if I can find a way around utilising a scarce and >>>>>>>precious commodity then I will try it, is that not why we are >>>>>>>here!!!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Try adding "no matter who tries to stop me!!!!!" and see if it fits or >>>>>>not. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Not sure what agve you the idea that I was considering binning the idea. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>I sure didn't have that idea. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>On the other hand, as we all know or should by now, the water >>>>>>>>resource you'd be using need not be wasted, and I'm afraid I have >>>>>>>>to ask whether you use a flush toilet that uses fresh water? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>I do indeed flush my toilet with fresh water. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Why don't you use a sawdust toilet and compost it? No water use, no >>>>>>waste of organic "wastes" that should be returned to the soil (to >>>>>>produce more biofuels crops perhaps). It'll even give a free source >>>>>>of processing heat. You could use the water you'd saved for washing >>>>>>and get the same or better results without tying your biodiesel >>>>>>production to an outside source you have no control over, and you >>>>>>might even save more water that way. Just as long as you know how to >>>>>>make the fuel properly in the first place. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Attractive as it may be to carry waste wash water from work 20 miles >>>>>>>to home to refill the cistern, I doubt the practical aspects of >>>>>>>doing this would go without a frown or two from the wife. :-D >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You've provided us with one reason anyway for using Magnesol >>>>>>>>(presuming it passes the other hurdles Todd mentioned, and me), and >>>>>>>>you've also offered some test results below, which is what I asked >>>>>>>>for though I haven't read them yet, so what's the problem? Isn't >>>>>>>>that why we're here? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>Just re-read Todds message and although I can see a few important >>>>>>>issues he mentioned regarding energy expenses, as to actual hurdles >>>>>>>in the way of integrating magnesol into a process I see none. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Sigh. >>>>>> >>>>>>I'll leave you to it Chris. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>Would you say that you've reached a stage with learning the process >>>>>>>>where you can easily make homebrew biodiesel yourself that gets >>>>>>>>within the standard specs with a few hours spent stir-washing it so >>>>>>>>you can do some comparative tests yourself? I didn't get the >>>>>>>>impression that was established with the results you gave us, >>>>>>>>please correct me if I'm wrong. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Best >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Keith >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>I have indeed. If you refer to the fact that I over 'lyed' the test >>>>>>>batches then the reason for this was quite deliberate. In the event >>>>>>>of a misreading, miscalculation or mismeasurement during a process >>>>>>>then the water washing stage offers the ability to correct the >>>>>>>oversight. I wanted to be sure that a magnesol wash could cope with >>>>>>>this. If a measured dose of magnesol can cope with a soapy batch >>>>>>>diesel then it can certanly cope with a good batch. If I had not >>>>>>>done this then I would have had no 'safety factor' in my conclusions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I will leave this subject at that and make no more mention of it. I >>>>>>>was interested in getting feedback and ideas on the >>>>>>>technical/chemistry side of things, maybe this is not the place to >>>>>>>do that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>It certainly isn't the place for smokescreening. If you want yesmen >>>>>>who'll never dare venture beyond the frame of reference you specify >>>>>>then you should try somewhere else perhaps. We do scepticism here >>>>>>too, as well as the Precautionary Principle. And straight talk. >>>>>> >>>>>>Best >>>>>> >>>>>>Keith >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Chris.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Biofuel mailing list >>>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>>> >>>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>>> >>>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>>>messages): >>>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Biofuel mailing list >>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>> >>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>> >>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>>messages): >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Biofuel mailing list >>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
