Thanks for the response Keith. This is very good info for me. I do not wish to spend a lot of time trying to do something that is close to imposable or just impractical. When I could be out collecting U.V.O. or making bio d. Would you have any idea what Doug is speeking of earlier in this post? He makes it sound like ethanol is easily done. I maybe reading into this though. Derick.
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:20 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Derick, you are talking about "cellolosic ethanol", that is ethanol made from cellulose, rather than from starch. This is the "holy grail" of ethanol production. Very small amounts of ethanol can be made from sulfuric acid digestion of cellulose, but the yield is abysmal and the cost high. My position is it is not worth the time, trouble, and expense. the problems are manifold. First is the fact that the lignin present, which binds the cellulose, is not easily separable from the cellulose,and hydrolysis of cellulose to free the sugars is much more difficult that that of starch, and finally the sugars released from cellulose fermentation are not easily fermentable with yeast. Big bucks have been spent trying to solve these problems since at least the 70's with little or no success. Simply, if it were easy, it would be happening everywhere, as the feedstock- cellulosic wastes-are abundant. Derick Giorchino wrote: > No Keith am not confused. I do make biodiesel. I use methanol and until some > one has a better way that's what I will use. I was asking about the > production of ethanol to use in other family vehicles. > Since they are gas engines. I read on J.T.F. way back when I was starting > the venture of bio. That ethanol can be made at home using wood chips /paper > and I think there may have been also a mention of dry grass and brush and > breaking it down with sulfuric acid. But I would need to go back and read it > over. My quarry was as to the amount of yield verses raw product used per > liter /gal or what ever. > Thanks Derick. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:40 AM > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol > >> What are you people talking about????? >> >> have you ever made any type of biofuel? >> Seems to me that you are confusing them all. >> Acid Base process and ethanol fuel? >> Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are > talking >> alcohol fuel for petroleum engines. > > Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel > in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline > engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to > make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't > know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% > ( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question > about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much > sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he > wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for > novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the > way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded > with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to > make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing > methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with > concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't > understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing > ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not > ethanol. Oh well. > > Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing > absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres > of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is > here: > > Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor > oil > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil > > Best > > Keith > >> Does not make too much sense. >> Andrew >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Derick Giorchino >> To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol >> >> Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. >> What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid >> base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a >> marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are >> places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you >> would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would >> work. >> >> Good luck Derick >> >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of lres1 >> Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:03 AM >> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol >> >> >> >> Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead >> of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol >> with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and >> Methanol if Ethanol will do all. >> >> >> >> Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a >> straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion >> cost is less than US$20.00. >> >> To convert back to RUG is a flick of a switch on the dash. >> >> >> >> This makes more sense now to use the Ethanol instead of making >> Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already make the ethanol and >> it can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb engine. I >> still have no replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor >> to stop reactions with the Ethanol. At present The system is fully >> drained and blown with compressed air to clear out all water and >> Ethanol. Would be kinda nice to be able to shut the engines off and >> just walk away and not have the cleaning time. >> >> >> >> I do not want to get rid of the water in my Ethanol replacement for >> RUG as it gives much more power than RUG at 80 to 85% Ethanol and 15 >> to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and lines can handle it >> all the carbs can not. >> >> >> >> My next step is to try and run 502 C.I. V8 engines and 351 modified >> engines and 350 C.I. engines with 4 barrel hollies on Ethanol but >> need to clear up the carb reaction problems with the alloys involved. >> >> >> >> Would like to know how to get to 0.5% water for bio-diesel >> processing. Same question as JJJN I guess >> >> >> >> Doug > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob ========================================================= The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
