Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

Joe Street Fri, 01 Dec 2006 06:26:00 -0800

Hi Tom

Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enoughcastor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degreesC and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So Iwent to bed and left the hot plate on overnight......well in themorning......I crept downstairs....full of anticipation, like a child onChritmas morning and......there was thiscollosal.....huge.......disappointment. There was nothing interesting.Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced theoil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and thetemperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control forpower modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortableleaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surgeon the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and thehot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try againover the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcoholthrough the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work thoughbut may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for sometype of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It'sno majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven'ttried corn grits yet either....


Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:

Joe,
     What's the word?

I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now..... on the edge of my seat, "waiting a shivers" for the results ofthe castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes areholding up but my heart is starting to cramp up.

     Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive?

If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in itmeans

"Sorry, I don't want to talk about it."
                                                         Tom

    ----- Original Message -----
    *From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
    <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
    *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM
    *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

    Hi Tom;

    Yes you got the idea I am thinking about.  I worked a bit on the
    setup last night.  I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years
    back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a
    bout a 0000 on the dryness scale.  I'll take a bottle or two and
    put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil  which will float on
    the surface.  Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too
    much castor oil to form the barrier layer.  I'll heat to just
    below the boiling point and see what happens.  Perhaps the alcohol
    molecules will drag some water with them as you said.  The only
    way to know is to find out.  In the very least I'll have some high
    potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll
    have dry ethanol!!  Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed,
    hoping to find out.....

    Tirah
    Joe

    Thomas Kelly wrote:

    Hi Joe,
         I didn't follow you when you wrote:
    "I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how to
    do it?  I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90%
    pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom.  If
    there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top
    and you could do something like normal distillation through the
    oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer
    and gradually removing it from the water below.  I haven't done
    any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl
    eventually as well."

I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in

    castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then
    proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil.

This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil

    (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more
    energy to distill the alcohol out.

What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a

    selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor
    oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a
    sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom
    layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor).
    Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from
    the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its
    partial pressure would remain low ------->  a continuous stream

from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out.Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between

    water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from
    "pushing" through the oil layer into the vapor layer?
         Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow
    water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport
    systems like this occur in living cells).

Maybe I have it all wrong.You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .."harmonic mixing" ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table

    saw. Today I do some grunt work   .....  nothing dangerous.

Best to you .... don't hesitate to correct me if I have

    it all wrong.

Tom


        ----- Original Message -----
        *From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
        <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
        *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM
        *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

        Well Tom;
        Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems
        we discussed.  You could make a trap by welding or modifying
        a suitable pressure vessel.  I was thinking of using a
        scrapped fire extinguisher. Put  a fitting on the other end
        end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets
        inside.  Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass
        insulation.  That would be sweet but if you ever had a
        boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives......a
        risk I guess.
        I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how
        to do it?  I think the methanol I have recovered is already
        over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the
        bottom.  If there was a high percentage of water the oil
        would float on top and you could do something like normal
        distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol
        off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from
        the water below.  I haven't done any experiments yet. Of
        course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well.

        soon
        Joe

        Thomas Kelly wrote:

        Joe,
             I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol.
             I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer
        keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend
        gave me a beer keg  .....   problem: It's full of beer !!!
        Got to get a tap and empty it.

I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite,

        between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum
        would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low
        enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite.

How do we heat the trap?I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozenprojects .... some have stalled due to loss of interest.... I've got to rally."Time to get back to it! We should work together. I

        really want to get off the meth....;)"

DittoMaybe this little methanol price "crisis" will serve asa wake-up call ...Good to hear from you

             Hope you're on the mend
                                                 Tom

            ----- Original Message -----
            *From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
            *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
            <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
            *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM
            *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol

            Hi Tom;

            I couldn't agree more.  I have always planned to attempt
            ethyl esters.  That's one of the reasons I went for
            vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much
            tighter with ethyl esters production.  Don't forget
            about the castor oil method for drying alcohol.  I got
            some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury

I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much.Time to get back to it! We should work together. I

            really want to get off the meth....;)

            Joe

            Thomas Kelly wrote:

Kurt,
    Thanks for the info.
    Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home.

People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasonsincluding the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a viseand can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supplycould be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main linkbetween BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. Iwish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source.Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanolproduction.

                   Thanks again,
                                  Tom

----- Original Message -----From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol

It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural
gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.

-Kurt

Thomas Kelly wrote:

    It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.

    Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
    Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
                                                              Tom


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

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