Navnit,
Thanks for the info.
"I am working on other idea for destilling ethanol with less energy. If it
work i will let you know "
Please do.
Best of luck,
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "NV Dhana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
> Tom. Castor oil idea is a bum. I pour 100 ml of castor oil ln flask
> containing 500ml of fermented broth with about 7.5% ethanol. stirred it
> good
> and left it over night. I did not see any volume increase in castor oil. I
> made more test and find out, negligible amount of ethanol was dissolve in
> castor oil. i miix 99% pure ethanol with castor oil, which mix very well.
> i
> think, bond between water and ethanol in aquviose condition is much
> stronger. Castor oil also killed all yeast too. I am working on other idea
> for destilling ethanol with less energy. If it work i will let you know
> later. Navnit
>
>
>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:14:19 -0500
>>
>>Joe,
>> What's the word?
>> I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now .....
>>on the edge of my seat, "waiting a shivers" for the results of the castor
>>oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but
>>my heart is starting to cramp up.
>> Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive?
>>
>> If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it
>>means
>>"Sorry, I don't want to talk about it."
>> Tom
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Joe Street
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>>
>>
>> Hi Tom;
>>
>> Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup
>>last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which
>>is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a 0000 on the
>>dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour
>>in
>>some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows
>>at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer.
>>I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps
>>the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The
>>only
>>way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency
>>ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!!
>>Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out.....
>>
>> Tirah
>> Joe
>>
>> Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>
>> Hi Joe,
>> I didn't follow you when you wrote:
>> "I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do
>>it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I
>>think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high
>>percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something
>>like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol
>>off
>>the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below.
>>I
>>haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl
>>eventually as well."
>>
>> I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in
>>castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed
>>to distill the alcohol from the castor oil.
>>
>> This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or
>>a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to
>>distill
>>the alcohol out.
>>
>> What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a
>>selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil
>>floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to
>>select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the
>>top layer (vapor).
>> Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the
>>castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial
>>pressure
>>would remain low -------> a continuous stream from the liquid through the
>>castor oil to the vapor layer and out.
>> Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between
>> water
>>and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from "pushing" through
>>the oil layer into the vapor layer?
>> Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water
>>to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this
>>occur in living cells).
>>
>> Maybe I have it all wrong.
>> You do have me thinking. The last time that happened ..
>>"harmonic mixing" ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I
>>do some grunt work ..... nothing dangerous.
>>
>> Best to you .... don't hesitate to correct me if I have it
>>all wrong.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Joe Street
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>>
>>
>> Well Tom;
>> Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we
>>discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable
>>pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher.
>>Put
>> a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the
>>seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and
>>fiberglass
>>insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would
>>mean oil contaminating the seives......a risk I guess.
>> I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do
>>it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I
>>think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high
>>percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something
>>like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol
>>off
>>the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below.
>>I
>>haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl
>>eventually as well.
>>
>> soon
>> Joe
>>
>> Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>
>> Joe,
>> I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol.
>> I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I
>>think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg
>>..... problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it.
>>
>> I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the
>>still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration
>>of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not
>>damage the zeolite.
>>
>> How do we heat the trap?
>>
>> I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects
>>.... some have stalled due to loss of interest .... I've got to rally.
>>
>> "Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really
>>want to get off the meth....;)"
>>
>> Ditto
>> Maybe this little methanol price "crisis" will serve as a
>>wake-up call ...
>>
>> Good to hear from you
>> Hope you're on the mend
>> Tom
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Joe Street
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol
>>
>>
>> Hi Tom;
>>
>> I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl
>>esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the
>>limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't
>>forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor
>>oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a
>>while
>>and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together.
>>I really want to get off the meth....;)
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>
>>Kurt,
>> Thanks for the info.
>> Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home.
>> People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons
>>including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a
>>vise
>>and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply
>>could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link
>>between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality.
>>I
>>wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source.
>> Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at
>> ethanol
>>production.
>> Thanks again,
>> Tom
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol
>>
>>
>> It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from
>> natural
>>gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
>>good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.
>>
>>-Kurt
>>
>>Thomas Kelly wrote:
>> It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.
>>
>> Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
>> Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
>>produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
>> Tom
>>
>>
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