>Hello Luke Sorry, should have been Leo. On the other hand...
> >I think you are wrong Kieth That's not my name either. Best Keith >But you've left out what I said. Here it is: > > >Leo, I think you're making a mistake in assuming that there's some > >kind of free choice at work. There isn't, much - yes, it is possible > >to exercise individual choice, but in the face of a massive, > >pervasive and effective barrage of persuasion such as the world has > >never before seen from the extremely well-funded and well-connected > >opinion manufacturing industry, the fragment of the populace actually > >capable of making their own free choice is kept small enough to make > >sure it will never be a popular decision, and the rest get the wrong > >information anyway, no thanks to a supine media. > > > >With many of these issues, what all the externalisations end up > >amounting to is that, free choice or not, nobody is excluded in the > >end from the manufactured non-decisions of the masses, as Robert has > >just been lamenting: "We simply can't get away from the problem > >anymore." > > > >So please don't leave such things for the magic of the marketplace to > >provide solutions, because any such magic has long ago been hijacked. > >We have to see these things coming in time to stop them if necessary, > >or at least to enforce due precaution. > >Anyway... > > >I think you are wrong Kieth > >I did say "yes, it is possible to exercise individual choice", >please remember. > >Sorry to say so (really!), but it's apparent that you're not aware of >the shitstorm of spin you live in. That's the whole idea. That the >manufacturers manufacture what the consumers want to consume is an >idea that climbs a couple of steps up the ladder, sits down and goes >to sleep. The consumers end up wanting whatever the manufacturers >choose to manufacture, and the essential manufactured product is not >made in factories, it's bought elsewhere, paid for, manufactured and >delivered, and it's called "consent". > >It's very important for most Americans to believe they have freedom >of choice, it's a major plank in most of the great American myths. > >But Americans are essentially living in a society for which there is >no precedent when it comes to the sheer quantity, spread, reach, >penetration and effectiveness of manufactured and implanted opinion. >This affects all the industrialised societies, but particularly >America (to an extent which leaves the rest of the world gobsmacked >on a daily basis), and at this pitch - a total onslaught - it's not >just a matter of degree, it becomes a different thing. > >Spin has always been effective, since it was first deployed (in the >US) in 1916. But again, it's become a different thing in the last 30 >years of corporatism and corporate globalisation, and it makes a >crucial difference. > >Many people, especially in the last few years, are saying that it's >something you can only see from outside America, and there's a lot to >be said for that, we've seen it at work here, often, some classic >cases. > >Among the great successes of the opinion manufacturing industry are >the ones who think they know about spin and think they're immune to >it. > >Spin doesn't work with facts, no need to - so much easier if it can >be arranged that people *want* to believe your message, which is >easily arranged: then *they* will argue the "facts" for you. So to >speak... this is what generally happens: > >"One of the fundamental findings of cognitive science is that people >think in terms of frames and metaphors - conceptual structures. The >frames are in the synapses of our brains - physically present in the >form of neural circuitry. When the facts don't fit the frames, the >frames are kept and the facts ignored." - George Lakoff > >Denial, in other words. > >Consumer choice, LOL! > >How about some examples? For instance, do you think the massive >preponderance of SUV gas-guzzlers on US roads, far more than >elsewhere, is a reflection of the true and natural innate desires and >free consumer choices of American drivers? Please DON'T start that >whole discussion again, it's ALL in the archives, several times over. >If you do think that, do some research, see how much free choice >you're left with in the end. > >Do you think you can't buy an electric car in the US because the >consumers don't want them, as Detroit claims? Ask an American >electric car freak about that (also in the archives). > >Have you heard of the PNGV program? More and more Americans want to >buy hybrids these days eh? We've even (often) had people asking why >there aren't any diesel hybrids. A majority of Americans now want >independence from foreign oil (another myth) - yet right there, in >the multi-billion-dollar PNGV program that got stashed away on >various backroom shelves in Detroit and Washington, are (were) three >diesel hybrids that ran at 80mpg and were only a year or two away >from production. > >What happened? This is a fair pull-together: >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg30883.html >Re: [biofuel] SwRI wins EPA contract for development of hybrids > >A couple of the stories reffed there went and changed their links. >You can find them here, worth a read: > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html >Driving In Circles >New Fuel-Efficiency Initiative Is More PR Than Progress >by Steven Rosenfeld >The Bush administration is giving Detroit a subsidy to develop >hydrogen-fueled cars. But if history is a guide, automakers will use the >program to cover their lack of any real progress on fuel efficiency. > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html >[biofuel] Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Sucker >Jack Doyle > >Check out the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Doyle's book, "Taken for a >Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution": >http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/000031.html > >And so on, and on and on and on. Free choice, what a joke. > > >There is plenty of choice and I stand by what I say about "If you > >don't like don't buy it" > >You're standing on thin air. > > >I have been changing the way I consume what I need on a much larger > >scale in the past 6yrs since leaving the city once again and this > >time for good. It is the consumerist that supports the demand that > >the "manufacturing industry" creates. > >From what we live in to vehicles that we drive to the choice of > >power we use to the entertainment we want to how we are educated to > >what job we are going to have to the food we eat and beyond is all > >highly stacked towards the mainstream and that is because the > >"manufacturing industry" knows that if consumers don't buy their > >product they won't be in business!! Amazing eh!!! > >Now last night I watched a doco on a farmer in Illonois that had > >quite a history > >including that of his small farm providing food for 1200 families > >not 1200 individuals but 1200 families check him out at > >www.angelicorganics.com > >Good for him, but I think that is not a small farm, and those figures >are not particularly special, except when you compare it with an >industrialised "farm". Just a normal biodynamic farm. > >http://journeytoforever.org/farm_csa.html >Community-supported farms: Journey to Forever > >http://journeytoforever.org/cityfarm.html >City farms: Journey to Forever > >http://journeytoforever.org/farm.html >Small farms: Journey to Forever > > >this is proof that we can make a choice not only is he able to > >supply food for a large number of people but also provides > >employment social interaction shelter and a sense of being a major > >cog in a fantastic wheel to people that wish to be involved.The > >organic way of life is alive and kicking and growing larger as this > >fellow found out when the farm next door to him was brought by his > >shareholders for expansion > >So next time Keith when you want to make a limp wristed poooleeeeze > >towards somebody making an expression on choice just remember it is > >the consumer that buys and supports the demand. > >Yawn... Got a granny Luke? Wanna borrow an egg? > >"Limp wristed" yourself. And it's me who should relax, sigh... > > >Now I'm not trying to beat my own drum here but since I have been > >living a more sustainable lifestyle the people that I am associated > >with are looking further than mainstream and are starting to think > >about the way they consume. Showing by example is the best way to > >turn peoples thinking around and not leaving ethical decisions up to > >the government or authorities to make for us as they never will rule > >in the favour of health especially when money is involved. > >It's not a matter of magic in the market place but creating your own > >reality that is your best defence against this entire cloning/gmo > >thing > >That is a different matter, a different argument, a different issue >to the sheer myth of consumer choice and buying power creating >meaningful change. You are doing this outside of the system, and >we've been discussing this here for years, AND DOING IT. People are >waking up now, especially in the last 18 months or so, but it's very >uneven, very confused, often very wrongheaded - doesn't matter, it's >happening. > > >Way to go Luke. I agree with you 100% Unfortunately you are right > >about what happens to escapees It's going to happen sooner or later > >its just another problem that faces those involved with organics and > >when it happens steps will be taken to fight it just like we have > >with herbicides pesticides drought flood pestilence and attitude, > >panicking wont achieve a thing and is up there with governments for > >responsible actions. > >Bloody hell this is the most I've ever written to this list so I'm > >going to get off my soapbox now and have a lunch of organically > >raised chook that I scored yesterday along with a salad from my > >small garden and a home brew beer. > >Relax Kieth take it easy mate things don't need to be that bad > >I'm relaxed, thankyou, I wonder why people have to think that you're >excited or angry just because you disagree with them. Things are bad, >there's no sense in delusion, but what you won't find in anything I >write here is a negative or helpless/hopeless view of that. No >fantasies or myths either - that's what'll trip us up. > > >Have a read of the thread that you put up the other day about > >peasants I liked that, it was a beauty > >http://alternet.org/workplace/45813 >Living in America's Fringe Economy >By Howard Karger, Dollars and Sense. Posted December 29, 2006. >Millions of Americans live on the margins of the American economy, >depending on the likes of payday lenders and pawnshops, who charge >excessive interest rates and superhigh fees for their services. >[more] > >There's a deeper thread running through that Shanin thread and a few others. > >Best > >Keith > > > >Leo > > > >Luke Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >I guess that I can see where you're coming from with > >the whole "internalize" bit, but I think that once > >this GM animal thing becomes commonplace it'll become > >neigh impossible to avoid these products unless you > >raise your own food animals or buy from a very local > >source. Additionally, What happens when a clone animal > >escapes captivity and breeds with wild stock? I'm sure > >someone will tell me that cloned animals are not > >capable of producing viable offspring...but accidents > >happen. I am whole-heartedly against this on several > >levels, but primarily because it seems like such a > >pandora's box that I'd rather not see opened. > > > >Also, our global fascination with a meat-based diet is > >hugely inefficient compared to having a > >fruit/grain/veggie based diet with meat > >supplementation....paving the road to "cheaper" meat > >production should be a moot point...EAT LESS MEAT! > >Many people in many parts of the world are starving > >and living in poverty-level conditions, and people are > >always argueing over the best way to end world hunger. > >Well, the higher up the trophic chain you climb, the > >more NRG you gotta throw at something to produce. I'm > >relatively sure that if just the U.S. converted all of > >its meat farms to well planned, sustainable > >grain/veggie farms, we could put a pretty good dent in > >the hunger problem. > > > >But no, instead we're gonna start cranking out GM > >animals, legitimizing more research into human cloning > >(funny how bush hasn't flipped out about this like he > >did with embryonic stem-cell research), and passing on > >our little contribution to the rest of the world via > >exports. > > > >There's no room for apathy OR neutrality on this > >issue. Screw 'em. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- leo bunyan wrote: > > > > > I disagree with cloning for food etc > > > But I maintain that if people still want to go down > > > the road of the "convenience" of the > > > supermarket/stupidmarket that maybe cloning is the > > > only way to go for keeping up with demand > > > If we really are concerned with what we eat we > > > should be producing or supporting producers more on > > > a local scale. Growing a tomato plant does not > > > require a whole lot of skill or effort. If the > > > individual does not take control of how they want > > > their food then it is up to the corporations to > > > supply. And as my Dad told me when i complained that > > > I didn't like what Mum cooked "you'll eat it, and > > > what's more you'll like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" > > > If you don't like the idea of cloned products Don't > > > Buy Em > > > Leo > > > > > > Keith Addison wrote: > > > >From: "Hank Herrera" > > > >To: "'Community Food Security Coalition'" > > > >Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:21:45 -0500 > > > >Subject: [COMFOOD:] FDA announces cloned meat safe > > > to eat > > > > > > > >Today the Food and Drug Administration issued a > > > press release on > > > >cloned meat > > > > >(http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2006/NEW01541.html). > > > > > > > >The release covers the following points (copied > > > from the release; > > > >the release has more detail): > > > > > > > >Draft risk assessment > > > > > > > >The draft risk assessment finds that meat and milk > > > from clones of > > > >adult cattle, pigs and goats, and their offspring, > > > are as safe to > > > >eat as food from conventionally bred animals. The > > > assessment was > > > >peer-reviewed by a group of independent scientific > > > experts in > > > >cloning and animal health. They agreed with the > > > methods FDA used to > > > >evaluate the data and the conclusions set out in > > > the document. > > > > > > > >Proposed risk management plan > > > > > > > >The proposed risk management plan addresses risks > > > to animal health > > > >and potential remaining uncertainties associated > > > with feed and food > > > >from animal clones and their offspring. > > > > > > > >Draft guidance for industry > > > > > > > >The draft guidance for industry addresses the use > > > of food and feed > > > >products derived from clones and their offspring. > > > The guidance is > > > >directed at clone producers, livestock breeders, > > > and farmers and > > > >ranchers purchasing clones. It provides the > > > agency's current > > > >thinking on use of clones and their offspring in > > > human food or > > > >animal feed. > > > > > > > >The FDA wants comments > > > > > > > >FDA is seeking comments from the public on the > > > three documents for > > > >the next 90 days. To submit electronic comments on > > > the three > > > >documents, visit > > > > > >http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/oc/dockets/comments/commentdocke > > > > > > >t.cfm?AGENCY=FDA. Written comments may be sent to: > > > Division of > > > >Dockets Management (HFA-305), Food and Drug > > > Administration, 5630 > > > >Fishers Lane, Rm. 1061, Rockville, MD, 20852. > > > Comments must be > > > >received by Apr. 2, 2007 and should include the > > > docket number > > > >2003N-0573. > > > > > > > >For more information, visit > > > http://www.fda.gov/cvm/CloneRiskAssessment.htm. > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > The Consumer Federation of America has released a > > > statement opposing > > > the FDA's decision. > > > > > > On the question of whether FDA should consider the > > > ethical issues > > > involved: > > > > > > "This first decision to advance animal biotechnology > > > raises ethical > > > issues beyond the FDA's expertise. Neither the > > > agency nor animal > > > scientists are qualified to tell us whether and when > > > it is ethically > > > acceptable for humans to alter the essential nature > > > of animals. We > > > need a national discussion, including ethicists and > > > religious leaders, > > > to consider the wisdom of creating cloned and > > > transgenic animals. The > > > President should halt further FDA action on cloning > > > and set in motion > > > a process for beginning this broader discussion." > > > > > > > >http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/dec28pressrelease.pdf > > > FDA DISDAINS PUBLIC OPPOSITION; > > > PROMOTES ANIMAL CLONING > > > STATEMENT OF CONSUMER FEDERATION'S > > > CAROL TUCKER FOREMAN > > > > > > The Food and Drug Administration today announced it > > > intends to allow > > > cloned milk and meat in the food supply, imposing > > > these products on a > > > public that opposes cloning technology and does not > > > want to consume > > > cloned foods. The Gallup Research Organization > > > reports that over 60 > > > percent of Americans think animal cloning is > > > immoral. Other respected > > > independent polls report consumers declare they will > > > not knowingly > > > eat the products even after FDA approves them. Both > > > FDA and the > > > cloning industry are aware that consumers won't > > > knowingly buy cloned > > > foods. The FDA therefore has okayed selling the > > > products without > > > identifying labels, preventing consumers from > > > choosing not to > > > purchase and use cloned foods. > > > > > > CFA urges consumers who oppose production and sale > > > of milk and meat > > > from cloned animals to make their views known. Write > > > to the FDA and > > > tell them to reverse this anti-consumer action. > > > Write to your members > > > of Congress urging them to put a stop to FDA's > > > efforts to sell cloned > > > animals. Tell your supermarket manager that you > > > don't want to eat > > > cloned milk and meat and ask them not to sell these > > > products. > > > > > > The FDA has been criticized in recent years for > > > making political > > > decisions about drug safety. The agency and cloners > > > insist that > > > today's decision is based solely on science and if > > > cloned foods are > > > safe they must be accepted. This convenient fiction > > > does not serve > > > the public interest. > > > > > > The decision to take a drug is entirely voluntary > > > and is made because > > > an individual believes he or she will benefit and > > > the benefit will > > > outweigh any risk involved. Prescription drugs > > > require approval of a > > > license physician. The physician and package inserts > > > provide detailed > > > information on side effects. While the FDA must > > > insist that food > > > companies sell only products that are safe for human > > > consumption > > > surely Congress never intended that the FDA insist > > > that consumers eat > > > a food just because it is safe. Putting cloned milk > > > and meat on the > > > market with no identifying label information > > > eliminates the option to > > > avoid the products. > > > > > > The FDA has strained to encourage cloning animals. > > > Three years ago, > > > the Agency declared they were safe for humans and > > > animals but > > > published no data to support their position. > > > Recently the Agency > > > published its risk assessment. The risk assessment > > > acknowledges that > > > cloning results in larger numbers of miscarriages > > > and deformed > > > fetuses than other assisted reproductive > > > technologies. > >=== message truncated ===> _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
