Pannirselvam P.V
My apologies to the authors of the study. My criticisms "Sounds like a
poorly written science project" and "it doesn't seem to make any sense"
sprouted from my own ignorance.
I am doing my homework on the subject of reactive distillation.
I must admit to a bias that may compromise my acceptance of any "new
process." I like the idea of being able to make what I believe to be high
quality biodiesel, myself, on my own spot of land, using little more than what
I can scavenge from my local scrap metal dump. A new process that goes beyond
the reach of an average "Tom" and puts control back into the hands of big
business may be new, but not necessarily better. As you said:
" The new generation biofuel is like the new wave social web2 , the free open
process for several billions farmer to be free and independent of the big
blues globalised market .This the natural way for green future for all ,
where all are included to have the sustainable green fuel ."
You may be right when you say "... some novel modification can be
possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two stage proven JFT
BioD process."
Thank you for your response and I look forward to discussion and
enlightenment by list members as this story unfolds.
Best Wishes to You,
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: Pagandai Pannirselvam
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"
Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN ,
From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL
2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Chris,
I agree with you when you say
"I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to
make any sense.".
Pannirbr>>>>>>Certainly the results compared to the conventional process
has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of good grade
glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of the BioD production.It
is the fact that It reminds us to be of a poorly written science project as
this is because the information of the novel technological process are
valuable , but the farming community is one who share the knowledge
freely.Surely Keith know well how hard for him to get the new BioD process
information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always available
and here too the same is true .However the project has good future even for
small scale production in farm scale as very good results have been reported
for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol
The "New Process" appears to be the two stage acid/base process.
Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids ----> methyl esters. Stage
Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides ----> methyl
esters.
Pannnir >>>>> The combined reaction and separation known as reactive
distillation is an advanced novel innovative system of chemical engineering
process engineering subjects.I am sure that l the small scale production in
farm can do benefit using this novel methods not as it is as this is complex
units , but can be modified if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol
I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing.
Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester , making the reverse
reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di glycerol byproducts
making the biofuel with less quality.The better the separation as soon this is
formed better the yield , product quality.
I'm also confused about "Distilling" the washed and dried "Crude
Biodiesel" to get "Biodiesel". While it is possible to recover methanol from
the glycerine mix and even from the unwashed biodiesel by distillation,
washing removes any excess methanol, so I can't imagine why one would
distill washed and dried BD.
Pannirbr >>>> Really we need more information and I can agree with you. I
think it is not a simple distillation , but extractive distillation to recover
back diverse di ,tri esters formed.If you remember that this process new , the
co products need to be recovered as the catalyst is yet not an perfect one.
The 30 minute reaction time referred (as an advantage of the "New
Process" to is only for Stage One (acid esterification). There is still a
1 -2 hour base catalyzed transesterification (Stage Two). It also claims
that there is "no stirring" ..... I suspect this is wrong.
Pannirbr>>>>>>>>> I think,this is possible , eventhough not enough
information is yet known , if one understand well what is reactive
distillation some patented related with the processare known one. If you
combine distillation and reaction, the products , alcohol and water are
separated simultaneously .Several patented process does prove that it is
possible to get results with out the use of mechanical agitator's , but
thermal energy are used , which can be recovered , thus the process is designed
to be more energy efficient
It says that the "Classic Process" cannot use soy, rapeseed, palm,
coconut, sunflower, jatropa, recycled oil (WVO), or lard ????????
Wrong again.
The acid containing oil as well as the water content are yet still
technical problems , as the transesterification reaction using alkai catalyst
are very sensitive in terms of yield and quality .
It reminds me of a poorly written science project.
The project has merit surely , but have very poor content as they do
not wish to share the technical information. There are several innovations
especially the better quality of all the products , higher recovery , less
reaction time , more productivity , better energy recovery less environmental
problems .But I agree with all the coments here in the list that this much
advantage is needed for the farm scale production not worthy considering the
complexity
In this sense our old JFT two sage still can be gold.Yet some novel
modification can be possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two
stage proven JFT BioD process
We from Academic research will always wish to invent the process , so that
the farmer can also modify to be more productive , the better the quality of
the products totally diferent of academic one.
I wish also to get the comments as our list has so many members from
several countries , only very few members are involved here in recent biofuel
list discussions..The more younger list members views , our list leader Keith
very balanced view need to make this topic very long debate .Thus the simple
BioD process can be made possible by participation of all, as the web2 social
networking of this list members words are more powerful and useful to make the
good shape for the green future of new generation bio fuel from biomass for all
the people ,which can be made possible by active participation of our list
members , not by academics only or by profit oriented big blue company. The new
generation biofuel is like the new wave social web2 , the free open process
for several billions farmer to be free and independent of the big blues
globalised market .This the natural way for green future for all , where all
are included to have the sustainable green fuel .
Kind regards
Pannirselvam P.V
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher & Jacqueline Tan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:53 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"
> This website http://www.inet.hr/~jkuftine/en/biodizel.htm features a so
> called 'New Process" but, frankly, I can't see anything new about their
> process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.
>
> Anyone care to comment?
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos e Processos
DEQ – Departamento de Engenharia Química
CT – Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova – Natal/RN
Campus Universitário. CEP: 59.072-970
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