Hi, Keith, Ken and Tom Tom there is no for your apology, as we can have different views.
We, Acadamics , engineers , researchers need to learn a lot from all the people like Keith and Tom who are very practical always work very near to the process problems. What always happens to all the new and old engineers who are good in process synthesis , but lack always and also very bad in critical analysis of the project with regard to materials used, the complexity and viability. Thus several millions money spent by university research are all going as a waste such as supercritical extraction for BiD good results at laboratory , but no use for largescale use. The combination of practical and concepts based on the theory need to go together in this list to evolve a better catalysts, prcoessos, equipments, process seperations. The reactive distillation means doing the reaction together with the distillation and I agree with Keith that, yet this can be only research level. After Keith explanation about mixing by recirculation is an effective way to reduce the product revers reaction of glycerol , moreover , the sediment ion of glycerol , made possible means a better way to filter out the glycerol , thus preventing unwanted byproducts. Thus understanding of the process is vital to operate the plant. At the beginning mixing can favour the reaction , the can be slow so that the product can be pulled out of reaction. I also agree with Keith , there is no point to bother about glycerol recovery as this can be easily used as liquid soap , sold soap , combustible , , for bio gas production , even as the source for rural wood energy and hence the high cost of recovery to get ultra purity glycerol is out of question as far as the small scale process are concerned. Yet I have one one question to Keith regarding the use of Methanol instead of ethanol. Will this two stage process can be possible with ethanol only or the mixture of methanol and ethanol can be possible as methanol is not ready avaialable in several developing countries. let us again wish others do participate actively in our list, as this list used to be very dynamic , let us come back all again to make this as leading one . Kind regards to all Pannirselvam 2007/4/12, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Hi Tom, Pannir and all >Pannirselvam P.V > My apologies to the authors of the study. My criticisms >"Sounds like a poorly written science project" and "it doesn't seem >to make any sense" sprouted from my own ignorance. > I am doing my homework on the subject of reactive distillation. > > I must admit to a bias that may compromise my acceptance of any >"new process." I like the idea of being able to make what I believe >to be high quality biodiesel, myself, on my own spot of land, using >little more than what I can scavenge from my local scrap metal dump. I think that's the main point. It's accessible to virtually anyone anywhere. >A new process that goes beyond the reach of an average "Tom" and >puts control back into the hands of big business may be new, but not >necessarily better. It looks like an unholy marriage of the acid-base process and the famous "supercritical methanol" process (Saka et al) that was getting everyone excited a few years back - methanol at 5080 PSI and 350-400C. Um, no thankyou, I don't want big business doing that anywhere near me, let alone backyarders. High temperature + high pressure + lots of methanol as with this "new" process is likely to kill someone, I fear. >As you said: >" The new generation biofuel is like the new wave social web2 , the >free open process for several billions farmer to be free and >independent of the big blues globalised market .This the natural way >for green future for all , where all are included to have the >sustainable green fuel ." > > You may be right when you say "... some novel modification can >be possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two stage >proven JFT BioD process." I think so too, but not if it means trading in some of its many advantages (KISS, for instance). > Thank you for your response and I look forward to discussion and >enlightenment by list members as this story unfolds. > Best Wishes to You, > >Tom > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Pagandai Pannirselvam >To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process" > > Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , > > From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL > >2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >Chris, > I agree with you when you say > "I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to >make any sense.". > > > > Pannirbr>>>>>>Certainly the results compared to the conventional >process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of >good grade glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of >the BioD production. But I don't think that's of much interest to small-scale producers. I don't think it's easy to sell small-scale production of glycerin, even if it's refined, so this is really only a concern for large-scale producers. Tom said previously the cost of phosphoric acid for separating the by-product was covered by the recovered methanol, and you end up with crude glycerin that accelerates a compost pile or improves production of an anaerobic digester. Good enough I think. <snip> >The project has merit surely , but have very poor content as they >do not wish to share the technical information. That might be the reason, or they might just be fishing for financial support and don't really have anything much except some preliminary results, the claims they make could be true or could be just theory, or a mix of the two. I think we should probably be sceptical. We've seen so many things like this, and so few of them ever emerge into practice. I doubt this process will contribute much to a sustainable green future. <snip> > I wish also to get the comments as our list has so many members >from several countries , only very few members are involved here in >recent biofuel list discussions. Robert said something similar recently. It has been quieter than usual, broader participation and wider discussion would be welcome, as always. All best Keith >It is the fact that It reminds us to be of a poorly written >science project as this is because the information of the novel >technological process are valuable , but the farming community >is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely Keith know well how >hard for him to get the new BioD process information published in >JFT, but incomplete information are always available and here too >the same is true .However the project has good future even for >small scale production in farm scale as very good results have been >reported for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol > > > The "New Process" appears to be the two stage acid/base process. >Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids ----> methyl esters. Stage >Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides ----> methyl >esters. > > >Pannnir >>>>> The combined reaction and separation known as >reactive distillation is an advanced novel innovative system of >chemical engineering process engineering subjects.I am sure that l >the small scale production in farm can do benefit using this novel >methods not as it is as this is complex units , but can be modified >if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol > > > > I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. > > > > > >Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester , making the >reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di >glycerol byproducts making the biofuel with less quality.The better >the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product >quality. > > > > I'm also confused about "Distilling" the washed and dried "Crude >Biodiesel" to get "Biodiesel". While it is possible to recover methanol from >the glycerine mix and even from the unwashed biodiesel by distillation, >washing removes any excess methanol, so I can't imagine why one would >distill washed and dried BD. > > > Pannirbr >>>> Really we need more information and I can agree >with you. I think it is not a simple distillation , but extractive >distillation to recover back diverse di ,tri esters formed.If you >remember that this process new , the co products need to be >recovered as the catalyst is yet not an perfect one. > > > The 30 minute reaction time referred (as an advantage of the "New >Process" to is only for Stage One (acid esterification). There is still a >1 -2 hour base catalyzed transesterification (Stage Two). It also claims >that there is "no stirring" ..... I suspect this is wrong. > > >Pannirbr>>>>>>>>> I think,this is possible , eventhough not >enough information is yet known , if one understand well what is >reactive distillation some patented related with the processare >known one. If you combine distillation and reaction, the products , >alcohol and water are separated simultaneously .Several patented >process does prove that it is possible to get results with out the >use of mechanical agitator's , but thermal energy are used , which >can be recovered , thus the process is designed to be more energy >efficient > > > It says that the "Classic Process" cannot use soy, rapeseed, palm, >coconut, sunflower, jatropa, recycled oil (WVO), or lard ???????? > Wrong again. > > > The acid containing oil as well as the water content are >yet still technical problems , as the transesterification reaction >using alkai catalyst are very sensitive in terms of yield and >quality . > > > It reminds me of a poorly written science project. > > > The project has merit surely , but have very poor content as >they do not wish to share the technical information. There are >several innovations especially the better quality of all the >products , higher recovery , less reaction time , more productivity >, better energy recovery less environmental problems .But I agree >with all the coments here in the list that this much advantage is >needed for the farm scale production not worthy considering the >complexity >In this sense our old JFT two sage still can be gold.Yet some >novel modification can be possible to make more environmentally >friendly our old two stage proven JFT BioD process >We from Academic research will always wish to invent the process , >so that the farmer can also modify to be more productive , the >better the quality of the products totally diferent of academic one. > > I wish also to get the comments as our list has so many members >from several countries , only very few members are involved here in >recent biofuel list discussions..The more younger list members >views , our list leader Keith very balanced view need to make this >topic very long debate .Thus the simple BioD process can be made >possible by participation of all, as the web2 social networking of >this list members words are more powerful and useful to make the >good shape for the green future of new generation bio fuel from >biomass for all the people ,which can be made possible by active >participation of our list members , not by academics only or by >profit oriented big blue company. The new generation biofuel is like >the new wave social web2 , the free open process for several >billions farmer to be free and independent of the big blues >globalised market .This the natural way for green future for all , >where all are included to have the sustainable green fuel . > > > >Kind regards > >Pannirselvam P.V > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Christopher & Jacqueline Tan" ><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:53 AM >Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process" > > > > This website ><http://www.inet.hr/~jkuftine/en/biodizel.htm>http://www.inet.hr/~jkuf >tine/en/biodizel.htm features a so > > called 'New Process" but, frankly, I can't see anything new about their > > process and it doesn't seem to make any sense. > > > > Anyone care to comment? > > > > Thanks > > Chris _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
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