Immediate gratification. That's a large part of why we are in this mess.
> Wonder what the payback time of those granite counters and appliances is? > > > > On 6/15/07, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I wonder if you could look at the carbon output and extrapolate >> backwards >> to get a rough idea what the cost is. >> >> Interesting side note: I was at the bus stop in my neighborhood, which >> is >> for lack of a better word, one of the more exclusive suburbs in the >> country, mosty due to its proximity to DC. Many people are tearing down >> their small houses and building huge ones, or substantially remodeling >> what they have. I fell into conversation with one neighbor doing the >> latter. As the conversation started on the subject of the cost of gas >> and >> energy in general, I asked if they'd thought about solar for power, heat >> and hot water, a multi-fuel furnace - such as a Tarm and extra >> insulation, >> etc. They'd thought about it, but realized that the $50,000 or so for >> the >> above was about the cost of granite counters and Sub Zero appliances in >> the kitchen, and after all, this was their dream house - wasn't it? >> >> "High efficiency" gas heating and cooling along with better windows are >> as >> far as most people here will go. >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18995.html >> > [biofuel] The Railroading of Amtrak >> > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg12055.html >> > [biofuel] Subsidizing Trains, Planes And Automobiles >> > >> > (The whole discussion thread is linked at the end of the page.) >> > >> > Trains are a great way to travel, even better than ships. And the >> > best way to commute. >> > >> >>Like Keith stated so succinctly in a prior post, >> >>the USA isn't addicted to oil, it is addicted to >> >>waste. >> > >> > I didn't check it and I didn't download it either, but somebody was >> > saying that people bandied the figure around a lot these days that >> > the US had 5% of the world's population and uses 25% of the energy, >> > but he'd seen data years ago that the US used 45% of the world's >> > energy and he didn't think it had shrunk. >> > >> > I got to wondering what the figure might be if you included the full >> > energy costs of the war in Iraq, for instance, or the full energy >> > costs of the Empire's global military establishment, as someone like >> > Chalmers Johnson might put it, along with all the support stuff that >> > goes with it. For starters. What's the global energy bill of the US? >> > (Or am I looking at it all wrong?) >> > >> > I don't suppose we'd ever find out. I'm not very surprised when >> > energy data turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors. That's been the >> > case with oil reserves for a long time, especially with what Matt >> > Simmons has had to say about it more recently. Nobody really knows, >> > but that doesn't stop them lying about it. >> > >> > Whatever, a lot of list members have talked about the waste of energy >> > in the US. Hakan, for instance, who'd know, said the US was IIRC >> > about 30 years behind Sweden with energy efficient buildings. The >> > section on world energy use at our website (which might be where the >> > 25% came from) says "The average American uses twice as much energy >> > as the average European or Japanese and 155 times as much as the >> > average Nepalese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per >> > head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use >> > twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it." >> > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_404.html#energyuse >> > >> > I wouldn't say the Japanese are exactly paragons of energy >> > efficiency. In some ways yes, with solar and K-trucks, for instance, >> > but they've got a long way to go. There are way too many cars here, >> > K-trucks notwithstanding, recycling's good in some sectors, but not >> > much reduce, very little re-use, too much needless consumption - a >> > popular book here tells you all sorts of ways to throw things away >> > more creatively (which doesn't necessarily mean being more >> > eco-friendly about it). >> > >> > Still, millions of people ride their bicycles to the rail station >> > every day to go to work. Japanese trains are great! >> > >> > From a previous message: >> > >> >>[Japanese] Foreign Minister Taro Aso pointed out Friday that Japan's >> >>oil efficiency is eight times better than that of China, quoting >> >>data from International Energy Agency, an energy policy adviser to >> >>26 industrialized countries. >> >> >> >>"I have told (Chinese Foreign Minister) Li Zhaoxing that China would >> >>be able to curb its oil consumption to one-eighth (of the current >> >>level) if (it) becomes like us," Aso said when asked to comment on >> >>China's energy problems. >> > >> > So China's more wasteful than the US? >> > >> > I wonder if China will take that to mean that they can cut >> > seven-eighths of their oil consumption if they do it like Japan or >> > that they'll be able to produce eight times as much with the amount >> > of oil they're using now. >> > >> > Best >> > >> > Keith >> > >> > >> >>Dawie Coetzee wrote: >> >> > This from another group: >> >> > >> >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/message/10256 >> >> > >> >> >> Fuel-sipping trains >> >> >> June 11, 2007 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> With energy prices high and likely to go higher in the years >> ahead, >> >> >> it would make sense for the nation to embrace a transportation >> >> >> policy that puts a premium on energy efficiency. Transportation, >> >> >> along with electrical power generation, is the country's biggest >> >> >> consumer of fossil and renewable fuels. So what is the most fuel- >> >> >> efficient form of transportation available in the U.S. today? >> >> >> Believe it or not, it's Amtrak. >> >> >> >>This is kinda a no brainer. >> >> >> >>How long ago was it that Bush1 made up the >> >>transportation policy for 'the next 20 years' >> >>for the US? >> >> >> >>All I remember, is that I recently out of the service >> >>having spent the previous 18 months in (then) western >> >>Europe, and was already a big fan of bicycling. >> >> >> >>I was really hoping to hear about major investment >> >>in light rail, revamping heavy (freight) rail lines >> >>and of course the idea that is so good it's almost >> >>stupid, radical investment in bike-friendly transportation >> >>infrastructure. >> >> >> >>Having seen this all over Europe, I was convinced >> >>that my home country, the USA would embrace this >> >>approach, it just makes so much sense. >> >>What a naive fool. Even then, in my 30s, I had >> >>yet to grasp how idiotic my culture can be. >> >> >> >>Bush1 gave it all away, gave a great speech >> >>about revamping our then crumbling interstate >> >>highway infrastructure, to the joyful salutations >> >>of the automobile, trucking, and local porkbarrel >> >>contractors and industries. How insane! I thought, >> >>can't anyone see how much economic growth could >> >>be garnered by targeting these alternative approaches? >> >> >> >>Uhh, probably, probably all too well. As I listened >> >>to CSPAN and all the elected folks railing about >> >>the 'taxpayer burden' of continued subsidy of AMTRAK. >> >>As if all the hundreds of billions spent on backing >> >>the airlines and interstate systems, as well as the automotive >> >>industries was nothing. Even at that point I was >> >>pretty ignorant of the staggeringly huge subsidies >> >>expended on the fuel industry in the USA. >> >> >> >>How this is actually seen. >> >> >> >>NPR recently did the inquiry I was hoping someone would >> >>do. It was so close to what I was hoping for I was >> >>a bit taken aback when I heard about it. >> >>Basically, the transportation cost of taking >> >>a family of 4 one-way from the Washington DC region to >> >>Boston Mass, via AMTRAK vs. driving. >> >> >> >>Make no mistake, not matter how hard you hit >> >>up the cost of operating a SUV, there isn't any >> >>comparison. Barreling (heh) up I95 in an SUV >> >>full of people, FROM THE CONSUMER POINT OF VIEW >> >>is MUCH less expensive than taking the same >> >>group of people on AMTRAK. >> >> >> >>Until this changes, meaning, in my mind, that >> >>until AMTRAK and other passenger rail systems start >> >>receiving the same kind of consideration that >> >>the car culture receives this will remain >> >>so. >> >> >> >>I could go on and on about this. Perhaps its the >> >>romance of rail travel (I quickly admit how much >> >>I enjoy travelling by rail, having been fortunate >> >>enough to have done so numerous times since I was >> >>a child) perhaps all these other things, but as >> >>has been hammered on by this list so many times >> >>in the past, Until the USA just simply gets over >> >>this childish/infantile NEED for immediate gratification >> >>this will be the continued suicidal direction. \ >> >> >> >>Maybe in the 80s, when telecommuting was just starting >> >>to begin to make sense, but certainly now, where for >> >>so much of the commuting traffic here in the USA, it's >> >>a genuine alternative, held up only by corporate culture, >> >>esp in the east (where the laws are made) and so on, >> >>blah blah blah. >> >> >> >>I do love trains, even in view of their shameful >> >>past. The infrastructure is there. Not making >> >>full use of it, esp in view of what is currently known >> >>is criminal. >> >> >> >>Like Keith stated so succinctly in a prior post, >> >>the USA isn't addicted to oil, it is addicted to >> >>waste. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Biofuel mailing list >> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> > >> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> > >> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> > messages): >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuel mailing list >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> messages): >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> > > > -- > Zeke Yewdall > Chief Electrical Engineer > Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company > Cell: 720.352.2508 > Office: 303.459.0177 > FAX documents to: 720.269.1240 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.cosunflower.com > > CoSEIA Certified > Certified BP Solar Installer > National Association of Home Builders > > Quotable Quote > > "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow, > in the dead of winter, war spreading, > families dying, the world in danger, > I walk the rocky hillside > sowing clover." > > Wendell Berry > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
