It is very complicated! To start in the USA you have the trident of evil Insurance-doctors (HMO)-lawyers they all have to make money and they all blame the others for their higher costs. Liability is HUGE in the USA
The ones making money they do not want to make less and they use the "we do not want the government telling me what doctor to visit and the, what is or not paid for" never mind the insurance is telling them, but it seems to work with most Americans, may be they do not know that the USA is the country that spends the most in Health Care and most citizens do not get anything out of it. The Corporation speech that Andy K mention is true and THAT is the bottom line. A two tier system with government oversight on the private one (many things can go wrong this way) In my opinion is best, if you do not want to wait and can afford it, pay for it and go thru a private clinic (Not the most ethical but I best solution) By the way that is NOT how the Canadian system works and I have been in it and it does work fairly good but I think a person should be able to PAY and get it now. The health care system in the USA will collapse very soon due to the rising costs, we will see what happens. We have solutions from doctors that say well I will not get insurance that way no lawyer will sue me (they have a point! because remember the "trident of evil") Is very complicated but one thing is for sure, current situation, it will/is not benefitting "the people" Ivan PS: I am surprise the have not privatize the fire department in the USA! so you pay a monthly "insurance' and if you do not pay and there is a fire in your house you are out of luck! -----Original Message----- From: Doug Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 9:56 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning(NYT-article) I just do not understand the US system. I am an Australian, & we have a mandated Pension system that inputs from memory 9% of a workers wages into a Superannuation scheme (of our choosing). Most seem to use an Industry fund (sort of Union related: has low fees & usually good returns, depending on the market.). To my kmowledge there has been no Super Fund collapse in Australia as yet. The Australian Health scheme is similar to the Canadian one. The cost to residents is low, & you can also increase the benefits with Private insurance if you so desire (but the basic benefits are adequate). The cost to our Government is less than the US per-person cost, & every Australian citizen is covered. If I was an American (US) citizen, I feel I would want much more for my tax $ than is currently seen in the US system: I really cannot see where the inefficiencies could be, & feel that a fairer system should be achievable. I wonder why Obama is having so much difficulty changing the US medical system? regards Doug On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:18:40 am Keith Addison wrote: > Hello Dan, Michelle and all > > >Michele, > > > > I don't know that the Federal Government would be - on the hook - > > PBGC > > > >only insures Pensions from Private companies in this case it's the > >retired > >workers who could be out. It's a lesson in the need for good financial > >planning and not putting all of your eggs in 1 basket. This reminds me > >of > >the Enron collapse. So many people had all of their retirement tied up > >in > >Enron, when the company went under, so did they. > > So you blame the pensions themselves, instead of Enron and the > Washington people (?) who enabled the whole scam? > > >Pensions should not exist. > > I'm not 100% in touch with all the details of this issue because > there's simply been too much of it and I've had no reason to focus on > it that closely. But IMHO that would be throwing out the baby with > the bathwater. In other countries than the US, pensions not only > exist, they also function as intended, providing millions with an > essential resource that they depend on. Just because the whole system > of welfare, healthcare and benefits in the US is now dysfunctional is > no reason to damn them as worse than useless. Shouldn't you rather be > aspiring to help restore their valuable functions instead of just > baling out? > > >They are plagued with problems and seldom funded correctly. At least > >with > >a 401k I can make my investment decisions and I know that what I get > >depends on what I contribute. > > How many deserving people would that exclude? How many Americans have > died (been killed?) so far because they were effectively denied > healthcare? > > A Grim Record: One In Seven Americans Is On Food Stamps > December 8, 2010 > <http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/12/08/131905683/a-grim-record-one-in-s > even-americans-is-on-food-stamps> > > No prizes for guessing what kind of "food" they eat. > > Best wishes > > Keith > > >Dan > > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > >Michele Stephenson > >Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:36 AM > >Subject: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning > >(NYT-article) > > > >For those of you who live in the US an article of interest... For those > >who live outside looking in, it's no big surprise > > > >Private Company and Industry pensions plans have all but gone away. The > >substitute is the 401K that no one is really responsible for except the > >investor to make the best choice for Self. However, for those who work > >for local and state govt agencies this is something to watch and > >investigate especially if you are currently receiving a pension or will > >receive a pension in the next years to come. > > > >What is as important if not more important to watch is how these issues > >will be resolved. In the article below, if the judicial system does not > >get involved, then mediation is an option which usually results in a cut > >in benefits. I doubt for those struggling funds one mediation is all it > >will take. Mediation could possibly take place with every local and > >state legislative session resulting in a cut every time. > > > >For those funds that do get processed in the court system it will likely > >go to the respective State Supreme Court and ultimately the US Supreme > >Court. If localities are legitimately declared bankrupt and no longer > >required to pay pensions it is the federal govt's responsibility to do > >so. In effect, we all pay for lack of managment and corruption in > >Anywhere, USA. And once this precedent is established there will be a > >landslide of 'toxic' pensions to be dealt with (or not). > > > >It is the future. If you don't think so, Iceland is bankrupt from > >investing in bonds that were rated as "A" by unscrupulous wall street > >fund > >managers/business men/swindlers when they should have been rated as > >"Junk" > >level. Greece is bankrupt. Ireland is bankrupt. Portugal is bankrupt. > >Spain will possibly be bankrupt by this time next year. And the US's > >current financial situation, if scrutinized by the IMF credit rating > >system used on these same bankrupt countries, is on the verge of changing > >to riskier interest rates based on our debt and GDP and other indicators > >(just like the above countries with exception of Iceland). What do all > >these countries have in common? They are followed the same financial > >paradigm: loans/debt to stimulate economy. > > > >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40793765/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/ > > > >Full Text below: > > > > > >PRICHARD, Ala. - This struggling small city on the outskirts of Mobile > >was > >warned for years that if it did nothing, its pension fund would run out > >of > >money by 2009. Right on schedule, its fund ran dry. > > > >Then Prichard did something that pension experts say they have never seen > >before: it stopped sending monthly pension checks to its 150 retired > >workers, breaking a state law requiring it to pay its promised retirement > >benefits in full. > > > >Since then, Nettie Banks, 68, a retired Prichard police and fire > >dispatcher, has filed for bankruptcy. Alfred Arnold, a 66-year-old > >retired fire captain, has gone back to work as a shopping mall security > >guard to try to keep his house. Eddie Ragland, 59, a retired police > >captain, accepted help from colleagues, bake sales and collection jars > >after he was shot by a robber, leaving him badly wounded and unable to > >get to his new job as a police officer at the regional airport. > > > >Far worse was the retired fire marshal who died in June. Like many of the > >others, he was too young to collect Social Security. > > > >"When they found him, he had no electricity and no running water in his > >house," said David Anders, 58, a retired district fire chief. "He was a > >proud enough man that he wouldn't accept help." > > > >The situation in Prichard is extremely unusual - the city has sought > >bankruptcy protection twice - but it proves that the unthinkable can, in > >fact, sometimes happen. > > > >And it stands as a warning to cities like Philadelphia and states like > >Illinois, whose pension funds are under great strain: if nothing changes, > >the money eventually does run out, and when that happens, misery and > >turmoil follow. > > > >More U.S. news More retirees moving in with their children > >As retirement investments erode during the economic crisis, the number of > >multigenerational family households has been growing - returning to a > >trend from half a century ago. Full story > > > >It is not just the pensioners who suffer when a pension fund runs dry. If > >a city tried to follow the law and pay its pensioners with money from its > >annual operating budget, it would probably have to adopt large tax > >increases, or make huge service cuts, to come up with the money. > > > >'Prichard is the future' > >Current city workers could find themselves paying into a pension plan > >that > >will not be there for their own retirements. In Prichard, some older > >workers have delayed retiring, since they cannot afford to give up their > >paychecks if no pension checks will follow. > > > >So the declining, little-known city of Prichard is now attracting the > >attention of bankruptcy lawyers, labor leaders, municipal credit analysts > >and local officials from across the country. > > > >They want to see if the situation in Prichard, like the continuing > >bankruptcy of Vallejo, Calif., ultimately creates a legal precedent on > >whether distressed cities can legally cut or reduce their pensions, and > >if > >so, how. > > > >"Prichard is the future," said Michael Aguirre, the former San Diego city > >attorney, who has called for San Diego to declare bankruptcy and > >restructure its own outsize pension obligations. "We're all on the same > >conveyor belt. Prichard is just a little further down the road." > > > >Many cities and states are struggling to keep their pension plans > >adequately funded, with varying success. > > > >New York City plans to put $8.3 billion into its pension fund next year, > >twice what it paid five years ago. Maryland is considering a proposal to > >raise the retirement age to 62 for all public workers with fewer than > >five > >years of service. > > > >Illinois keeps borrowing money to invest in its pension funds, gambling > >that the funds' investments will earn enough to pay back the debt with > >interest. New Jersey simply decided not to pay the $3.1 billion that was > >due its pension plan this year. > > > >Colorado, Minnesota and South Dakota have all taken the unusual step of > >reducing the benefits they pay their current retirees by cutting > >cost-of-living increases; retirees in all three states are suing. > > > >No state or city wants to wind up like Prichard. > > > >Once thriving > >Driving down Wilson Avenue here - a bleak stretch of shuttered > >storefronts, with pawn shops and beauty parlors that operate behind > >barred windows and signs warning of guard dogs - it is hard to see > >vestiges of the Prichard that was a boom town until the 1960s. > > > >The city once had thriving department stores, two theaters and even a > >zoo. > >"You couldn't find a place to park in that city," recalled Kenneth G. > >Turner, a retired paramedic whose grandfather pushed for the city's > >incorporation in 1925. > > > >The city's rapid decline began in the 1970s. The growth of other suburbs, > >white flight and then middle-class flight all took their tolls, and the > >city's population shrank by 40 percent to about 27,000 today, from its > >peak of 45,000. As people left, the city's tax base dwindled. > > > >Prichard's pension plan was established by state law during the good > >times, in 1956, to supplement Social Security. > > > >By the standard of other public pension plans, and the six-figure > >pensions > >that draw outrage in places like California and New Jersey, it is not > >especially rich. Its biggest pension came to about $39,000 a year, for a > >retired fire chief with many years of service. > > > >The average retiree got around $12,000 a year. But the plan allowed > >workers to retire young, in their 50s. And its benefits were sweetened > >over time by the state legislature, which did not pay for the added > >benefits. > > > >For many years, the city - like many other cities and states today - knew > >that its pension plan was underfunded. > > > >As recently as 2004, the city hired an actuary, who reported that "the > >plan is projected to exhaust the assets around 2009, at which time > >benefits will need to be paid directly from the city's annual finances." > > > >The city had already taken the unusual step of reducing pension benefits > >by 8.5 percent for current retirees, after it declared bankruptcy in > >1999, yielding to years of dwindling money, mismanagement and corruption. > >(A previous mayor was removed from office and found guilty of neglect of > >duty.) > > > >The city paid off its last creditors from the bankruptcy in 2007. But its > >current mayor, Ronald K. Davis, never complied with an order from the > >bankruptcy court to begin paying $16.5 million into the pension fund to > >reduce its shortfall. > > > >'Only so much money' > >A lawyer representing the city, R. Scott Williams, said that the city > >simply did not have the money. "The reality for Prichard is that if you > >took money to build the pension up, who's going to pay the garbage man?" > >he asked. "Who's going to pay to run the police department? Who's going > >to pay the bill for the street lights? There's only so much money to go > >around." > > > >Workers paid 5.5 percent of their salaries into the pension fund, and the > >city paid 10.5 percent. But the fund paid out more money than it took in, > >and by September 2009 there was no longer enough left in the fund to send > >out the $150,000 worth of monthly checks owed to the retirees. The city > >stopped paying its pensions. And no one stepped in to enforce the law. > > > >The retirees, who were not unionized, sued. The city tried to block their > >suit by declaring bankruptcy, but a judge denied the request. The city is > >appealing. The retirees filed another suit, asking the city to pay at > >least some of the benefits they are owed. A mediation effort is expected > >to begin soon. Many retirees say they would accept reduced benefits. > > > >Companies with pension plans are required by federal law to put money > >behind their promises years in advance, and the government can impose > >punitive taxes on those that fail to do so, or in some cases even seize > >their pension funds. > > > >Companies are also required to protect their pension assets. So if a > >corporate pension fund falls below 60 cents' worth of assets for every > >dollar of benefits owed, workers can no longer accrue additional > >benefits. > >(Prichard was down to just 33 cents on the dollar in 2003.) > > > >And if a company goes bankrupt, the federal government can take over its > >pension plan and see that its retirees receive their benefits. Although > >some retirees receive less than they were promised, no retiree from a > >federally insured plan in the private sector has come away empty-handed > >since the federal pension law was enacted in 1974. The law does not cover > >public sector workers. > > > >Christmas plea > >Last week several dozen retirees - one using a wheelchair, some with > >canes > >- attended the weekly City Council meeting, asking for something before > >Christmas. Mary Berg, 61, a former assistant city clerk whose mother was > >once the city's zookeeper, read them the names of 11 retirees who had > >died since the checks stopped coming. > > > >"I hope that on Christmas morning, when you are with your families around > >your Christmas trees, that you remember that most of the retirees will > >not > >be opening presents with their families," she told them. > > > >The budget did not move forward. Mayor Davis was out of town. > > > >"Merry Christmas!" shouted a man from the back row of the folding chairs. > >The retirees filed out. One woman could not hold back her tears. > > > >After the meeting, Troy Ephriam, a council member who became chairman of > >the pension fund when it was nearly broke, sat in his office and recalled > >some of the failed efforts to put more money into the pension fund. > > > >"I think the biggest disappointment I have is that there was not a strong > >enough effort to put something in there," he said. "And that's the reason > >that it's hard for me to look these people in the face: because I'm not > >certain we really gave our all to prevent this." > > > >This article, " Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning," first > >appeared in The New York Times. > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 > messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
