Hello Peter >Hi Keith ; > >> But then they didn't argue about healthcare either, nor women's >rights, or racism, the environment, libraries, education. We do make >progress, we humans,...... > >Keith, none of these things that we consider "progress" would be >considered progress by Jesus, in fact quite the opposite.
Oh? Which particular Jesus is that, I wonder? >I am of >the opinion that near the end times, the whole world will be deceived. End times. Oh dear. >Is it possible we are following the script precisely as foretold? Foretold by whom? A 14-year-old Scottish girl who had a dream, as it turns out, via an obscure 19th-century Scottish missionary whose predictions are dismissed by all the mainstream Christian churches, and of course all the other main religions too. It's not in the Bible, not even in the Book of Revelation. (Christianity has been arguing for about 1,900 years whether Revelation is genuine or not, and whether it should even be in the Bible or not.) Check this out: http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm Brief History of the Apocalypse Oh but THIS time it's for real, eh? Sure, just like all the other times. Rapture? It's a load of nonsense. We've been through all this rather thoroughly before, there's no earthly or heavenly reason to go through it all again now. Like it or not. > > Would you explain what you mean by "mankind's fundamental nature"? >> People are naturally cooperative, it's what they do all the time, >> it's the human norm. They go out of their way to help other people, >> even when they don't know them. It's the nature of humans to be >> generous. > >While I admire your boundless optimism, We've also agreed here before that there's no contradiction between optimism and realism. It's not me who's being naive here. >I don't think it will be enough >to save us, democracy or not. Sure people help each other once in a while, >you do, I do, but I don't think that is the norm, particularly across cultural >divides. Yes it's the norm. "... but I don't think...", you say. It's not a matter of what you may or may not prefer to think, of course you're welcome to "think" (believe) whatever you like, but it's thoroughly demonstrated, as I said. Case rests, for quite a long time already. >And a bullet or bomb can easily undo thousands of acts of kindness. Shot by whom? Manufactured and supplied by whom? Humans? In whose wars? Ours? We've been through all that before too, many times. Not "us" - "them". But you take no notice at all, it just bounces right off you. >As a race we have a long history of struggling to acquire the bullets and >bombs and the biggest and deadliest weapons we can develop.... Not "us" - "them". Sigh. >Unfortunately, history shows that is our nature, notable exceptions to the >contrary. Nope, sorry, wrong. Once again, did you read the refs I gave you? No. Right? Isn't it a little convenient that you keep cutting the previous content? Stop doing that, your cuts are not judicious. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner >Best Regards, >Peter G. >Thailand Previous: >>Hi Peter >> >>>Hi Keith ; >>> >>>Thanks for the lengthy response. It seems to me, and correct me >>>if I am wrong, that most of what you are saying is describing what >>>is wrong with our version of democracy and what should be done to >>>improve it. >> >>I said I think it's reached its use-by date, along with nation-states. >> >>>While we can debate that subject, my question was more about what >>>does anyone think are the chances that this version, that version, >>>or any version, can be successful. I don't think there is any >>>chance given mankind's fundamental nature, and you seem to think >>>there is. >> >>No, I looked at it from several different points of view and found >>it wanting. >> >>>Sure a few people can talk about what would work, maybe even have >>>pockets of temporary success (like America), but large scale >>>success I believe is not possible by any mortal or group of >>>mortals. >> >>It depends what you mean by "success", and "large-scale", with a >>time-frame. Living systems are dynamic, they change all the time. >> >>> > And a genocide, and a civil war, over slavery. >>> >>>The interesting thing for me is that slavery was not a problem for >>>Jesus (I'm not sure about most other major religions but I think >>>this is true of them also), and nowhere does He mention democracy, >>>equal rights, or any of the current cornerstone concepts we take >>>for granted as truth. That is a surprise to me, and I wonder why, >>>and I wonder what deep and complex lessons that might have for us, >>>and what it tells us about our new thinking. And if democracy was >>>not mentioned as a system of government, then what was, and why? >> >>They had the Roman Empire on one hand and kings and priests on the >>other, there probably wasn't much left to discuss. >> >>But then they didn't argue about healthcare either, nor women's >>rights, or racism, the environment, libraries, education. We do >>make progress, we humans, we have a much better class of problems >>now. Much worse wars too, indeed, but that's "them", not "us". H.G. >>Wells said much the same thing in "Outline of History", that >>despite all the calamities along the way, it charted a steady human >>progress which he hadn't expected when he set out to write it, he >>just wrote the story, the plot emerged by itself. >> >>Did you read the two posts on Richard Manning's "The Oil We Eat" >>that I referred to? I restored your snip below, but anyway it's >>here: >> >>>Do you remember the discussion we had about Richard Manning's article >>>"The Oil We Eat" in Harper's? I think it has a bearing on this. It's >>>here: >>>http://www.harpers.org/archive/2004/02/0079915 >>> >>>This is what I wrote about it: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg32878.html >> >>Would you explain what you mean by "mankind's fundamental nature"? >> >>You've read this, I think? >> >>Re: Nothing ... it's people Was: What's wrong with corporations? >>Jai Haissman CR, SEP >>27 Dec 2003 >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg30705.html >> >>The paper he refers to is here: >> >>Toward a Psychology of Interdependency >>A Framework for Understanding Global Conflict and Cooperation >>Stanley I. Greenspan, M.D. and Stuart G. Shanker, D.Phil. >>http://journeytoforever.org/rrlib/greenspan.html >> >>Meanwhile I've gleaned a bulging folder stuffed with other papers, >>reports and books stating the same thing: A Natural History of >>Peace, Humans Evolved To Be Peaceful, Hard-Wired for Moral >>Politics, The evolution of cooperation, A Natural History of Peace, >>Why Humans Cooperate - A Cultural and Evolutionary Explanation, The >>Age of Empathy, Humans Evolved To Be Peaceful, Cooperative And >>Social Animals, Not Predators. There's about 300 Mb of it. >> >>People are naturally cooperative, it's what they do all the time, >>it's the human norm. They go out of their way to help other people, >>even when they don't know them. It's the nature of humans to be >>generous. >> >>Regards >> >>Keith >> >> >>>Best Regards, >>> >>>Peter G. >>>Thailand >>>www.thyroid-s.com >>>>Hi Peter >>>> >>>>>Hi Keith ; >>>>> >>>>>I think we can mostly agree that this grand experiment in democracy >>>>>is not turning out so well for the USA, and the last chapter is not >>>>>even in yet. But the USA had extraordinary potential at the start >>>>>of this experiment: huge natural resources, huge land mass, God >>>>>fearing leaders and population. >>>> >>>>And a genocide, and a civil war, over slavery. >>>> >>>>>So if under these excellent conditions, democracy is not a stable >>>>>system for the long term (and by stable I mean thousands of years), >>>>>then I ask the question: under what conditions COULD it be stable >>>> >for the long term? And unfortunately my answer is: none. >>>> >>>>On the other hand, quite a lot of people who said "none" thousands of >>>>years ago have been proved wrong. >>>> >>>>Maybe democracy just needs to evolve a bit. Or a lot. This is the >>>>capitalist version we're discussing. Boom and bust, boom and bust, >>>>lots of wars. It's interesting how mentions of Marx and socialism >>>>have gone right up in the press and on the net in the last few >>>>months. And as I said, "Time to dump Leo Strauss and look to >>>>Georgescu-Roegen." >>>> >>>>Leo Strauss : Milton Friedman/Reagan/Thatcher, Chicago School, >>>>neo-liberal economics. Strauss taught that "perpetual deception of >>>>the citizens by those in power is critical because they need to be >>>>led, and they need strong rulers to tell them what's good for them." >>>>That's what Edward Bernays thought too, Freud's nephew, and the >>>>founder of PR: "The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the >>>>organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element >>>>in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of >>>>society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling >>>>power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our >>>>tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never >>>>heard of." Hmph. >>>> >>>>Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen founded bioeconomics, or ecological >>>>economics (Robert Costanza, Herman Daly et al), which is a complete >>>>departure. Add Fritz Schumacher and you've got all the economics >>>>anyone needs. The real Adam Smith would like it. Georgescu-Roegen >>>>knew how to smile - he enjoyed the sheer contradictoriness of an >>>>electric golf cart as a symbol of wasteful consumer cluelessness in a >>>>growth economy, for instance. >>>> >>>>Noam Chomsky wrote about Adam Smith: "Smith believed the efficient >>>>market is composed of small, owner-managed enterprises located in the >>>>communities where the owners reside. Such owners normally share in >>>>the community's values and have a personal stake in the future of >>>>both the community and the enterprise. In today's global corporate >>>>economy, footloose money moves across national borders at the speed >>>>of light, society's assets are entrusted to massive corporations >>>>lacking any local or national allegiance, and management is removed >>>>from real owners by layers of investment institutions and holding >>>>companies." >>>> >>>>Ecological economics has to work more or less as Smith envisioned it, >>>>or it wouldn't be ecological. >>>> >>>>We know from what we've learned here over the years that there are >>>>sustainable ways of going about all this, how it works and how it >>>>doesn't work. It's not just theory, it's been thoroughly established >>>>for about 80 years, and millions of people have been turning that way >>>>in the last decade or so, more all the time. >>>> >>>>Another problem is that democracy is sheep's clothing to the US: the >>>>US isn't just a democracy, it's an empire. More and more people are >>>>saying that too, and most of them say it's ending. >>>> >>>>More metrics: The Gini coefficient is a number between 0 and 1, where >>>>0 corresponds with perfect equality, where everyone has the same >>>>income, and 1 corresponds with perfect inequality, where one person >>>>has all the income and everyone else gets zilch. Wikipedia's "List of >>>>countries by distribution of wealth" includes Gini coefficients: >>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_distribution_of_wealth >>>> >>>>World average: 0.804. :-( >>>> >>>>The US is 0.801. I could only see six countries lower than 0.6, the >>>>lowest being Japan, 0.547. >>>> >>>>These measures are not very reliable for comparative purposes, but >>>>it's interesting just the same. >>>> >>>>All best >>>> >>>>Keith >>>> >>> >Dawy? :) >>>> >>>>Best Regards, >>>> >>>>Peter G. >>>>>Thailand >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Hi Bob >>>>> >>>>>I spelled it wrong, I meant to say democrisy, sorry. >>>>> >>>>>As a democracy New Zealand ranks 5th, after Norway, Iceland, Denmark >>>>>and Sweden, with Australia 6th, and the US 19th, after Uruguay and >>>>>the UK. >>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index >>>>> >>>>>I'm not sure if that makes New Zealand 3.8 times more democratic than >>>>>the US, nor whether Mr Rudd would currently agree about Oz. >>>>> >>>>>New Zealand ranks 32nd on the per capita GDP list: >>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita >>> >> >>>>>However, it gets a "poor" rating in the Happy Planet Index (HPI): >>>>>http://neweconomics.org/sites/neweconomics.org/files/The_Happy_Planet_Index_1.pdf >>>>> >>>>>New Zealand is coloured dark orange on the map, far below green. >>>>> >>>>>In the rankings chart (p57), it ranks 11th in the Western world, but >>>>>only 94th worldwide, after Jordan and followed by Japan. >>>>> >>>>>Countries in HPI rank order >>>>> >>>>>Reasonable ideal >>>>>Life Satisfaction 8.2 >>>>>Life Expectancy 82.0 >>> >>Ecological footprint 1.5 >>>>>HPI 83.5 >>>>> >>>>>New Zealand >>>>>Life Satisfaction 7.4 >>>>>Life Expectancy 79.1 >>>>>Ecological footprint 5.5 >>>>>HPI 41.9 >>>>> >>>>>Godzone? >>>>> >>>>>I think democracy is a denatured concept these days, especially >>>>>considering what's done in its name. Maybe it's hit its use-by date, >>>>>as have nation states, surely, in this living world where everything >>>>>is connected to everything else. We need something better than >>>>>nations and democracy, more local and more global. >>>>> >>>>>"The major western democracies are moving towards corporatism. >>>>>Democracy has become a business plan, with a bottom line for every >>>>>human activity, every dream, every decency, every hope. The main >>>>>parliamentary parties are now devoted to the same economic policies - >>>>>socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor - and the same >>>>>foreign policy of servility to endless war. This is not democracy. It >>>>>is to politics what McDonalds is to food." - John Pilger >>>>> >>>>>"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist >>>>>due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too >>>>>important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for >>>>>themselves." - Henry Kissinger, prior to the CIA overthrow of the >>>>>democratically elected government of socialist President Salvadore >>>>>Allende in Chile in 1973, to be replaced by the murderous Pinochet. >>>>> >>>>>"Its easier to kill a million people than it is to control them." - >>>>>Zbigniew Brzezinski >>>>> >>>>>"No man is an island, intire of itselfe, every man is a part of the >>>>>maine. Any man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in Mankinde. >>>>>So seek not to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - >>>>>John Donne >>>>> >>>>>Time to dump Leo Strauss and look to Georgescu-Roegen. >>> >> >>>>>Best >>>>> >>>>>Keith >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Yes. New Zealand. >>>>>> >>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of >>>>>>Keith Addison >>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, 28 February 2012 11:46 p.m. >>>>>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>>Subject: [Biofuel] Imposing democrysy >>>>>> >>>>>>Can you name a single truly democratic nation in the world today? >>>>>> >>>>>>See also: >>>>>> >>>>>>89% vote in favor of new Syrian Constitution >>>>>>Published: 27 February, 2012 >>>>>><http://rt.com/news/syria-referendum-constitution-results-307/> >>>>>> >>>>>>"West" Wants Assad Out, Democracy or Not >>>>>>By Global Times >>>>>>February 27, 2012 >>>>>><http://www.globaltimes.cn/NEWS/tabid/99/ID/697555/West-wants-Assad-out-demo >>>>>>cracy-or-not.aspx> >>>>>> >>>>>>--0-- >>>>>> >>>>>><http://rt.com/news/eu-recognizes-syrian-national-council-321/> >>>>>> >>>>>>EU hits Syria with toughest-yet sanctions, recognizes SNC >>>>>> >>>>>>Published: 27 February, 2012 >>>>>> >>>>>>The EU has recognized the Syrian National Council, one of the main >>>>>>opposition groups, as a legitimate representative of the Syrian >>>>>>people. The decision came as the EU ministers met in Brussels to slap >>>>> >Syria with its toughest set of sanctions yet. >>>>> > >>> >>><snip> >>>tem for the long term (and by stable I mean thousands of years), >>>>then I ask the question: under what conditions COULD it be stable >>>>for the long term? And unfortunately my answer is: none. >>> >>>On the other hand, quite a lot of people who said "none" thousands of >>>years ago have been proved wrong. >>> >>>Maybe democracy just needs to evolve a bit. Or a lot. This is the >>>capitalist version we're discussing. Boom and bust, boom and bust, >>>lots of wars. It's interesting how mentions of Marx and socialism >>>have gone right up in the press and on the net in the last few >>>months. And as I said, "Time to dump Leo Strauss and look to >>>Georgescu-Roegen." >>> >>>Leo Strauss : Milton Friedman/Reagan/Thatcher, Chicago School, >>>neo-liberal economics. Strauss taught that "perpetual deception of >>>the citizens by those in power is critical because they need to be >>>led, and they need strong rulers to tell them what's good for them." >>>That's what Edward Bernays thought too, Freud's nephew, and the >>>founder of PR: "The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the >>>organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element >>>in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of >>>society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling >>>power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our >>>tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never >>>heard of." Hmph. >>> >>>Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen founded bioeconomics, or ecological >>>economics (Robert Costanza, Herman Daly et al), which is a complete >>>departure. Add Fritz Schumacher and you've got all the economics >>>anyone needs. The real Adam Smith would like it. Georgescu-Roegen >>>knew how to smile - he enjoyed the sheer contradictoriness of an >>>electric golf cart as a symbol of wasteful consumer cluelessness in a >>>growth economy, for instance. >>> >>>Noam Chomsky wrote about Adam Smith: "Smith believed the efficient >>>market is composed of small, owner-managed enterprises located in the >>>communities where the owners reside. Such owners normally share in >>>the community's values and have a personal stake in the future of >>>both the community and the enterprise. In today's global corporate >>>economy, footloose money moves across national borders at the speed >>>of light, society's assets are entrusted to massive corporations >>>lacking any local or national allegiance, and management is removed >>>from real owners by layers of investment institutions and holding >>>companies." >>> >>>Ecological economics has to work more or less as Smith envisioned it, >>>or it wouldn't be ecological. >>> >>>We know from what we've learned here over the years that there are >>>sustainable ways of going about all this, how it works and how it >>>doesn't work. It's not just theory, it's been thoroughly established >>>for about 80 years, and millions of people have been turning that way >>>in the last decade or so, more all the time. >>> >>>Another problem is that democracy is sheep's clothing to the US: the >>>US isn't just a democracy, it's an empire. More and more people are >>>saying that too, and most of them say it's ending. >>> >>>More metrics: The Gini coefficient is a number between 0 and 1, where >>>0 corresponds with perfect equality, where everyone has the same >>>income, and 1 corresponds with perfect inequality, where one person >>>has all the income and everyone else gets zilch. Wikipedia's "List of >>>countries by distribution of wealth" includes Gini coefficients: >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_distribution_of_wealth >>> >>>World average: 0.804. :-( >>> >>>The US is 0.801. I could only see six countries lower than 0.6, the >>>lowest being Japan, 0.547. >>> >>>These measures are not very reliable for comparative purposes, but >>>it's interesting just the same. >>> >>>All best >>> >>>Keith >>> >> >Dawy? :) >>> >>>Best Regards, >>> >>>Peter G. >>>>Thailand >>>> >>>> >>>>Hi Bob >>>> >>>>I spelled it wrong, I meant to say democrisy, sorry. >>>> >>>>As a democracy New Zealand ranks 5th, after Norway, Iceland, Denmark >>>>and Sweden, with Australia 6th, and the US 19th, after Uruguay and >>>>the UK. >>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index >>>> >>>>I'm not sure if that makes New Zealand 3.8 times more democratic than >>>>the US, nor whether Mr Rudd would currently agree about Oz. >>>> >>>>New Zealand ranks 32nd on the per capita GDP list: >>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita >>>> >>>>However, it gets a "poor" rating in the Happy Planet Index (HPI): >>>>http://neweconomics.org/sites/neweconomics.org/files/The_Happy_Planet_Index_1.pdf >>>> >>>>New Zealand is coloured dark orange on the map, far below green. >>>> >>>>In the rankings chart (p57), it ranks 11th in the Western world, but >>>>only 94th worldwide, after Jordan and followed by Japan. >>>> >>>>Countries in HPI rank order >>>> >>>>Reasonable ideal >>>>Life Satisfaction 8.2 >>>>Life Expectancy 82.0 >> >>Ecological footprint 1.5 >>>>HPI 83.5 >>>> >>>>New Zealand >>>>Life Satisfaction 7.4 >>>>Life Expectancy 79.1 >>>>Ecological footprint 5.5 >>>>HPI 41.9 >>>> >>>>Godzone? >>>> >>>>I think democracy is a denatured concept these days, especially >>>>considering what's done in its name. Maybe it's hit its use-by date, >>>>as have nation states, surely, in this living world where everything >>>>is connected to everything else. We need something better than >>>>nations and democracy, more local and more global. >> >> >>>>"The major western democracies are moving towards corporatism. >>>>Democracy has become a business plan, with a bottom line for every >>>>human activity, every dream, every decency, every hope. The main >>>>parliamentary parties are now devoted to the same economic policies - >>>>socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor - and the same >>>>foreign policy of servility to endless war. This is not democracy. It >>>>is to politics what McDonalds is to food." - John Pilger >>>> >>>>"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist >>>>due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too >>>>important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for >>>>themselves." - Henry Kissinger, prior to the CIA overthrow of the >>>>democratically elected government of socialist President Salvadore >>>>Allende in Chile in 1973, to be replaced by the murderous Pinochet. >>>> >>>>"Its easier to kill a million people than it is to control them." - >>>>Zbigniew Brzezinski >>>> >>>>"No man is an island, intire of itselfe, every man is a part of the >>>>maine. Any man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in Mankinde. >>>>So seek not to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - >>>>John Donne >>>> >>>>Time to dump Leo Strauss and look to Georgescu-Roegen. >> >> >>>>Best >>>> >>>>Keith >>>> >>>> >>>>>Yes. New Zealand. >>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of >>>>>Keith Addison >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, 28 February 2012 11:46 p.m. >>>>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>Subject: [Biofuel] Imposing democrysy >>>>> >>>>>Can you name a single truly democratic nation in the world today? >>>>> >>>>>See also: >>>>> >>>>>89% vote in favor of new Syrian Constitution >>>>>Published: 27 February, 2012 >>>>><http://rt.com/news/syria-referendum-constitution-results-307/> >>>>> >>>>>"West" Wants Assad Out, Democracy or Not >>>>>By Global Times >>>>>February 27, 2012 >>>>><http://www.globaltimes.cn/NEWS/tabid/99/ID/697555/West-wants-Assad-out-demo >>>>>cracy-or-not.aspx> >>>>> >>>>>--0-- >>>>> >>>>><http://rt.com/news/eu-recognizes-syrian-national-council-321/> >>>>> >>>>>EU hits Syria with toughest-yet sanctions, recognizes SNC >>>>> >>>>>Published: 27 February, 2012 >>>>> >>>>>The EU has recognized the Syrian National Council, one of the main >>>>>opposition groups, as a legitimate representative of the Syrian >>>>>people. The decision came as the EU ministers met in Brussels to slap >>>> >Syria with its toughest set of sanctions yet. >>>> > >> ><snip> _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
