There is something interesting here. I like that ‘Bool?’ really represents what we need from the relation on Float. I think it solves the objection that Xiaodi mentioned with a PartialEq protocol. If everyone just switches to using PartialEq in generic contexts because they want it to work with Floats (which is the outcome he was worried about)… then they will be forced to deal with the optional! This brings Swift’s strengths into play, and we will have gained correctness.
The issue is migration though. Let’s say we name the partial equivalence relation ‘~’ and then we remove Float’s Equivalence conformance (no more == for Float). To migrate, we would need to replace any ‘a == b’ where there is a Float with ‘(a ~ b) == true’. Not pretty, but not impossible. The trouble spot will be where someone has written their own method which is generic on Equatable, and they are passing Floats to it. We need to be careful about the warning given, so that it sends them in the right direction. The good news is that if they do rewrite the function to use ‘~' it should actually cause them to fix bugs which were there (or at least consider the case of NaN) when dealing with Floats. So, overall good things, but a bit annoying while transitioning. We should keep thinking/discussing. I am convinced there is an interesting thread to pull on here... > On Oct 24, 2017, at 11:25 PM, David Sweeris via swift-dev > <swift-dev@swift.org> wrote: > >> >> On Oct 24, 2017, at 9:06 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-dev <swift-dev@swift.org >> <mailto:swift-dev@swift.org>> wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 10:08 PM, Ben Cohen <ben_co...@apple.com >> <mailto:ben_co...@apple.com>> wrote: >> >> >> On Oct 24, 2017, at 6:48 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi...@gmail.com >> <mailto:xiaodi...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 1:55 PM, Ben Cohen <ben_co...@apple.com >>> <mailto:ben_co...@apple.com>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 19, 2017, at 4:29 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-dev <swift-dev@swift.org >>>> <mailto:swift-dev@swift.org>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Differing behavior in generic and concrete contexts is simply too subtle >>>> to be understandable to the reader. >>> >>> Hardly more subtle then the current “Equatable works like this, with these >>> strong guarantees. Oh, except for some cases it doesn’t, in which case >>> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯” >>> >>> I'm not saying that the status quo is a superior alternative. >>> >>> However, one option is to _weaken_ the guarantees of Equatable such that it >>> guarantees only partial equivalence for `==`. From the perspective of >>> documented semantics, it's not subtle at all but a giant hammer of a >>> change. However, from an actual what-does-the-implementation-do standpoint, >>> it would be acknowledging what is already true. Only code that is already >>> broken when used with floating-point values would become formally >>> "incorrect" in the sense of relying on semantics that are then no longer >>> guaranteed. >>> >>> Such a solution would avoid, as you might say, perpetuating the ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ >>> approach to floating point. >>> >>> I realize that Comparable admits an exception for FP. This is, IMO, a >>> serious mistake and needs to be reversed. Equatable has no such exception >>> and rightly so. >>> >>> The clearest demonstrations of how flawed this approach is can be found in >>> the Standard Library. You can throw a brick at it and hit an example of >>> something that’s broken by the presence of .nan: random sort orders, == >>> implementations that differ based on the identify of the buffer, >>> >>> In my view, if a sort algorithm cannot accommodate NaN, it's entirely >>> acceptable to trap on NaN--and that is a trivial change. >> >> I think this would be user-hostile. This isn’t like out-of-bounds subscript >> where it’s just not possible to reasonably proceed. NaNs crop up and people >> don’t expect them to trap when you sort – they expect them to sort to one >> end, like in Excel. >> >> Honestly, I don't know that most users have thought about this possibility >> at all. Sure, a sort that matches IEEE total order _might_ be justifiable. >> But users are as likely to expect that the last item in the sorted >> collection will be the greatest and that the first item in the sorted >> collection will be the smallest. Now, you can say that NaN compares larger >> than everything, everywhere. But the moment that they try to plug that last >> element into, say, an AppKit UI function, they're toast. >> >> I certainly disagree with ideas of trapping on NaN inside `==` or similar >> functions, but I really do think that an argument can be made that it is not >> reasonable to proceed with sorting an array that contains NaN. >> >> >>> After all, NaN is unordered with respect to everything and one cannot sort >>> the unsortable. And, as shown, the `Array.==` implementation is trivially >>> fixable. The entire standard library can be made NaN-safe in like manner. >>> >> >> My point was, it’s not about what we can do in the standard library. The std >> lib only has a handful of methods and sure, we can fix them one by one. It’s >> about whether the standard library defines types and protocols such that >> it’s reasonable for programmers to use them to write and use generic >> algorithms correctly. I’m citing the existing std lib implementations as >> proof that it’s easy to make mistakes. And I think a more complicated >> approach, with more operators, more properties, more rules, won’t fix this >> problem. >> >> Well, to my mind, this problem you state really works out to: >> >> (a) People expect generic algorithms that operate on Comparable types to >> work correctly with floating-point types >> (b) Generic algorithms that operate on Comparable types don't work correctly >> with floating-point types unless the author is very, very careful >> (c) People shouldn't have to be very, very careful to write working generic >> algorithms that work with floating-point types >> >> Which, in turn, really boils down to: >> >> (d) People expect floating-point types not to have numerous unintuitive (but >> learnable) properties, including NaN being unordered >> (e) Floating-point types have numerous unintuitive (but learnable) >> properties, including NaN being unordered >> >> The reason I'm writing to swift-dev (rather than evolution) is that my >> interest is in fixing the standard library. I'm not even convinced that this >> problem you state is fixable, at least on your terms. In the interest of not >> increasing the API surface area, you would propose to blow away (e) in the >> generic but not concrete context. Now, while it's true that an alternative >> to increasing the API surface area is to have the same API exhibit >> context-specific behaviors, that certainly isn't any less complicated >> conceptually, as we would then be faced with the notion that floating-point >> types both have and do not have numerous unintuitive properties, depending >> on the context in which they are used. >>> arbitrary duplication in Set/Dictionary etc. >>> >>> (I disagree that it's arbitrary. If NaN != NaN, then every NaN is properly >>> unique.) >>> >>> The important point to take from this is not “how do we fix the Standard >>> Library?” but rather “these errors are easy to make” by anyone writing >>> generic code using standard protocols. If the Standard Library can’t get >>> these right, how can we expect others to? There are potentially far worse >>> bugs that could result. A differently-written sorting algorithm could >>> corrupt elements (because it relied on substitutability). Other sorting or >>> searching algorithms could easily go into an infinite loop. These problems >>> exist because the code relies on the documented behavior of the protocol, >>> because if you can’t, then what is the point in documenting that behavior? >>> >>> It's not that the standard library *can't* get these right, but that it >>> currently *doesn't*, because it documents one set of semantics but >>> implements another, then relies on documented semantics that it knows it >>> does not implement. We both agree that this needs to be fixed. >>> >>> The question here is whether it is to be fixed by sticking to the >>> documented semantic guarantees of `==` and bringing all implementations >>> into proper conformance, or alternatively sticking to the implemented >>> behavior of `==` and aligning the documented semantic guarantees to that. >>> >>> I don’t support solutions such as adding a property indicating >>> “containsExceptionalValues” (whatever that means), and expecting every >>> author of a generic algorithm that uses Equatable to remember to call it, >>> and craft custom paranoid behavior (if there is any reasonable behavior) >>> based on it. With recursive conformance landed on master, we finally have a >>> generics system where writing algorithms against Collection can be >>> considered approachable by ordinary users. You no longer have to know >>> things like how Collection.SubSequence needs to be constrained to also be a >>> Collection – it just is. We would be negating this good work to now >>> introduce a whole new set of gotchas that we expect people to know (without >>> the type system even helping them in this case) about how some types, >>> including standard library types, flout the documented rules for Equatable >>> and Comparable, and that you need to use one of a handful of properties to >>> hack in special cases to handle it. >>> >>> The gotchas aren't new; they arise when using floating point values, >>> originate with the IEEE definition of floating point equivalence, and exist >>> in some form in every language that has implemented collections of floating >>> point values. Crucially, they exist today in Swift; only, we haven't >>> documented it. >>> >>> And as a user of algorithms, what should you do? If a generic algorithm >>> doesn’t document how it handles these special cases, should you assume it >>> doesn’t? Check the code? Experiment to find out? >>> >>> This problem also spreads, virus-like, once we have conditional conformance >>> that makes containers equatable when their elements are. [Double] would >>> need to propagate it’s elements’ “exceptionality", to avoid problems with >>> [Double]. Double? will have to do the same. >>> >>> This isn't a _problem_. In fact, I consider this to be a key _feature_. >>> Naturally, every protocol conformance (conditional or not) must implement >>> all protocol requirements, so if we add additional requirements they must >>> be implemented. What I'm saying here is that *it may be desirable* to have >>> some protocol-based API to distinguish partial from full equivalence >>> relations. If you accept that premise, then it is the logical consequence >>> that if you conditionally conform `Array` to `Equatable`, you will have to >>> implement any new APIs, and in so doing, document how equivalence of arrays >>> of floating point values relates to floating point equivalence. For me, >>> this is a _good thing_: it documents _in code_ something that today is >>> muddled through. >>> >>>> The explanation that a method on `Float` is a "floating-point context" but >>>> a method on `[Float]` is *not a "floating point context"* is, IMO, >>>> indefensible. >>> >>> Nevertheless, I will attempt to defend it :) >>> >>> I find it odd that violating the documented requirements of a protocol is >>> considered defensible, but expecting types comply with those requirements >>> is indefensible. A principled stance would be to say that Float shouldn’t >>> conform to Equatable (because… it doesn’t!) and requiring all calls to >>> supply a predicate (and maybe amending types like Dictionary to allow you >>> to supply one). That won’t fly though – users would complain – so instead >>> we are in this murky ground. >>> >>> I don't think we should defend violating the documented requirements of a >>> protocol. Either (a) Float should not conform to Equatable (agree, this is >>> a non-starter); (b) how Float conforms to Equatable should be brought into >>> conformance with documented semantics (your stance); or (c) what semantics >>> are documented should be brought into alignment with how conformance is >>> actually implemented (my stance). Naturally, in the last case, additional >>> APIs should be added as needed to make such reduced semantic guarantees >>> useful for generic algorithms. >>> >>> Later in the thread, you mention a possible fix for sort: >>> >>>> `sort()` is problematic, but not if a custom predicate is supplied. >>> >>> >>> So, we are potentially trading off one subtlety (that < behaves differently >>> in generic and non-generic contexts) for another (that you need to know >>> that you need to pass in a special predicate for sorting, or you get >>> nonsense results). Knowing when an algorithm requires you to supply a >>> predicate (like sort) vs when handling for the special case is built in >>> (like equatable) seems far worse complication to me than knowing one rule: >>> that generically when constrained to Comparable, Float adheres to the >>> requirements of Comparable. Always. That is a consistent rule that you need >>> to learn once and that doesn’t vary depending on which algorithm you’re >>> using. >>> >>> I would argue that Float should _always_ adhere to the requirements of >>> Comparable, in all contexts. The question is, rather: what can be the >>> requirements of Comparable such that Float can always adhere to them? >>> >>> Another alternative proposed in previous threads is to give Comparable an >>> additional operator (<=> or .compare(to:) that will always enforce a total >>> ordering, and sort can use that. This is, afaict, C#’s solution – >>> double.NaN < 1.0, 1.0 < double.NaN and double.NaN == double.NaN all return >>> false, but Comparer<double>.Default.compare returns -1, 1 and 0 >>> respectively. >>> >>> This is, essentially, the endpoint of what I'm proposing. >>> >>> Equatable would vend (modulo bikeshedding): >>> `==`, a partial equivalence relation >>> `~`, a full equivalence relation >>> `containsExceptionalValues` (yes, this is a deliberately terrible name, >>> because it's meant to go through bikeshedding), a Boolean value to indicate >>> whether `==` is the same as `~` >>> >>> Comparable would vend (modulo bikeshedding): >>> `<`, `>`, <=`, `>=`, defined as now >>> `<=>`, as in C# `compare` (or maybe, to emphasize the point, `<~>`) >>> `containsExceptionalValues`, inherited from `Equatable`, to document the >>> relationship between `<` (etc.) and the spaceship operator >>> >> >> This looks to me to be an absurd mess of operations, none of which will have >> much hope of being used in a coherent fashion by most people. Should I use >> == or ~ here? What are the rules again? Will people remember to not use < >> when they really need <=>? Probably not. Did the author of this framework >> I’m using remember? Dunno. >> >> The syntax here is not the point (or if it is, it can be bikeshedded). The >> point I'm trying to make is that what you're criticizing as _incoherent_ is >> also _inescapable_. Floating-point types have a notion of equivalence that >> isn't full equivalence. For certain use cases (both concrete and generic), >> we want that partial equivalence, while for other use cases (both concrete >> and generic), we truly want full equivalence. To work with floating-point >> types correctly, a user must know that there is a difference between the >> two. If there is no hope of "most people" understanding this distinction >> when one relation is named `==` and the other is named `~`, then _a >> fortiori_ there is no hope of "most people" understanding the distinction >> when they're conflated into one operator `==` that has different behaviors >> in different contexts. >> >> The C# model of compare works because < is not available generically. There >> is no choice between < and <=>, and so the model is simple and easily >> understood by both algorithm implementors and users. And if you need a >> different ordering, you can supply your own custom comparator. As far as I >> can tell, it’s a good model and users are happy with it. Swift is different, >> since the concrete < isexposed to the generic implementation, but having two >> possibilities and expecting users to pick is IMO a bad idea. Hence the >> proposed fix that Float’s Comparable.< is required to be a total order, per >> the requirements of Comparable, essentially giving us the C# model. >> >> A true C# model would be fine, but the key point of that model to my mind is >> that partial equivalence and full equivalence are spelled differently (that >> is, `==` and `Equals`, respectively). It would not work with IEEE `==` being >> spelled the same way as Comparable `==`. If we were to rename the IEEE >> operation `&==` instead, then we'd functionally have a design that's broadly >> similar to the earlier version, only with different names: >> >> Equatable would vend `==`, a full equivalence relation (and `!=`) >> Comparable would vend `<`, `>`, `<=`, `>=`, now operators that reflect a >> total order over the set of all values; and maybe `<=>` >> Floating point would additionally vend `&==` and `&<` (and `&!=`, `&<`, >> `&>`, `&<=`, `&>=`) >> >> One key difference here would be that the partial equivalence relation would >> now only be found on floating-point types, and it would not be possible to >> write a generic algorithm that operates on any partially equatable or >> equatable type. But the other--and major--issues would be (a) that all >> concrete uses of floating-point comparison operators would have to be >> migrated to append an extra `&`; and (b) this syntax suggests that most >> users want to use `==` *instead of* `&==`, which I'm not sure is the >> case--and certainly isn't the case if they're trying to do the same things >> they're used to doing with floating-point values in other languages. > > What about having the protocol hierarchy look like this? (All names subject > to bikeshedding, of course) > > protocol MaybeEquatable { > static func ?== (lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool? > } > protocol MostlyEquatable : MaybeEquatable { > static func == (lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool > } > extension MostlyEquatable { > static func ?== (lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool? { return lhs == rhs } > // allows a `MostlyEquatable` or `Equatable` to function as a > `MaybeEquatable` without any extra code > } > protocol Equatable : MostlyEquatable {} // purely a semantic difference, no > extra syntax > > protocol MaybeComparable : MaybeEquatable { > static func ?< (lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool? > // plus the rest of them > } > protocol MostlyComparable : MaybeComparable, MostlyEquatable { > static func < (lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool > // plus the rest of them > } > extension MostlyComparable { > static func ?< (lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool? { return lhs < rhs } // > allows a `MostlyComparable` or `Comparable` to function as a > `MaybeComparable` without any extra code > // plus the rest of them > } > protocol Comparable : MostlyComparable, Equatable {} // purely a semantic > difference, no extra syntax > > extension Double : MostlyComparable { > static func ?== (lhs: Double, rhs: Double) -> Bool? { > return lhs.isNaN || rhs.isNaN ? nil : lhs == rhs > } > static func ?< (lhs: Double, rhs: Double) -> Bool? { > return lhs.isNaN || rhs.isNaN || (lhs.isInfinite == true && > rhs.isInfinite == true && lhs.sign == rhs.sign) ? nil : lhs < rhs > } > static func == (lhs: Double, rhs: Double) -> Bool { > // whatever current impl is > } > static func < (lhs: Double, rhs: Double) -> Bool { > // whatever current impl is > } > } > > > This would let people easily switch between the two kinds of "correct" > generic comparisons (returning a `Bool?` for types that could have invalid > comparisons and a `Bool` for types that can't), as well as easily opting into > using IEEE-754's current "arguably incompatible with sane generic > programming" behavior (by constraining T to "MostlyComparable" instead of > "Comparable") if that's what they really want. > > `Collection` could have different implementations of `==` depending on > whether `Element` conforms to "MaybeEquatable" or > "MostlyEquatable/Equatable", solving the "a = [Double.nan]; print(a == a) // > prints true" issue. > > This doesn't involve trapping on anything, so dunno what the performance > implications would be. All the extra work would be contained in the "?*" > functions, though, so at least existing code wouldn't sudden get slower. > > - Dave Sweeris > _______________________________________________ > swift-dev mailing list > swift-dev@swift.org <mailto:swift-dev@swift.org> > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-dev > <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-dev>
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