> On Jun 9, 2016, at 6:16 PM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution > <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 9, 2016, at 11:55 AM, Brent Royal-Gordon <br...@architechies.com> > wrote: > >>> I believe large syntax changes should have more discussion from more >>> developers and not a very small subset of them. The review announcement >>> needs to be broader: the swift blog needs to announce it so more people >>> know. >> >> No. > > Grrrr > >> >> Firstly, for those who cannot follow the list—and I can't say I blame >> them—the -announce list already allows them to ignore everything except the >> beginnings of reviews. Anyone who wants to (and who speaks English) can be >> notified of any significant proposed change to the language and can submit >> their comments for the core team's consideration. That is enough. > > I think your perspective is flawed here. You are precisely one of the "top > developers" I have been referring to. Am I surprised this is your opinion? > Not one bit.
But if you followed the email trail you must have noticed that the final choice was not what brent supported. I would even say that it was not any of the solutions anyone proposed.. Proof that the process worked, the team made a change nobody anticipated, yet many people can (partially) identify with. > > Mailing lists are a rather old thing...and I think many will find them > daunting or maybe somewhat annoying with all of the announcements. How many > people are subscribed to announce? It does not seem like many because > well...we don't always get a lot of feedback. We get feedback from the same > people over and over. How is this enough? How is this enough variety? > > Just because "announce" is more palatable does not mean that it is being used > in the way you are describing. > > Maybe there is another problem then: people afraid to share their opinions > publicly. I wonder why this would be. > >> The purpose of reviews is not to cast ballots for or against a feature. It >> is to submit arguments, for and against, for the core team to consider as >> they decide whether and how to address the problem the proposal's >> "Motivation" section describes. For that purpose, there is no need to >> collect hundreds or thousands of reviews, and if we did, the review manager >> would be swamped anyway. It is enough to get a reasonable variety of eyes, >> from a reasonable variety of perspectives, on the problem. > > Why do people keep saying I am asking for: "hundreds or thousands" of > reviews? I am just asking for something like 20 - 25 unique people's > feedback. We are not getting that. We get the same people over and > over...which makes the feedback seem screwed to this small group's > philosophies. > > Getting feedback from the same ~10 people is not a "reasonable variety of > eyes" in my opinion. That is a very small sample. And that sample is usually > those who are very technically skilled...who I would say do not always design > the best interfaces. > >> I think that has happened here. We have not heard from every perspective, >> but we have heard from enough of them that adding more will not help all >> that much. Feedback always has diminishing returns: going from one person to >> two is far more valuable than going from fifty-one to fifty-two. > > I think you will be very surprised come WWDC when people learn of this change. > > How is there value when the same people keep justifying changes for the sake > of consistency? Is this in the user's best interest? Or is this in the swift > engineer's best interest? > > This is precisely why I think more feedback is important. We need more than > just the same people propping up proposals that gives an illusion that it is > representative of everyone using swift. > > The bar should be high for changing syntax, so I don't buy the argument that > 25 people sharing their feedback is somehow less valuable than 10 people > sharing. > >> And in particular, I *don't* think the beginner perspective is an especially >> worrisome one for this particular proposal. > > I don't think this was though through thoroughly enough. It just happened too > fast > >> Though some of the syntaxes we considered might have been confusing for >> beginners (*cough*semicolon*cough*), the one the core team settled in is >> actually one of the simplest, and certainly much simpler than the status >> quo. If anything, the people most disadvantaged by this solution are the >> power users who are used to the "multiple if-let" shorthand and will now >> have to add extra keywords to their code. > > Maybe you are right. Maybe I am vastly wrong. But I guess this will be > clearer come WWDC. > > And I already know how the people complaining about this change will be > silenced: it was done for the consistency of the language and the grammar. > > How can us simpletons argue against that? > > Also, I want to make clear that my concern is not just for this review but > for future reviews also. How different could the language look with more > varied feedback? > > Again, I hope I am wrong =/ > Brandon > > >> -- >> Brent Royal-Gordon >> Architechies >> > _______________________________________________ > swift-evolution mailing list > swift-evolution@swift.org > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
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