On Sat, 12.03.11 13:00, Andrey Borzenkov (arvidj...@mail.ru) wrote: > The problem is not limited to syslog and applies to all special > targets that serve as "virtual provides" > > Actually I think design should be reversed. The service that > implements this virtual provide (syslog, network, rpcbind, smtp, ...) > should pull in special target. This way you ensure > > - when service that provides functionality is started, corresponding > virtual target is started as indication, that functionality is > available > > - if there is no service with requested functionality, target is not > available. In other words - target is not faked to be started unless > functionality is available. This allows easy and logical check, > whether syslog (rpcbind, network, ...) was really provided by any > service - if unit is not started, it was not. To round this off, > specials should also refuse manual activation.
So, Kay and I discussed this yesterday, and we came to the conclusion that Andrey's proposal is the right thing to do. It should be the specific implementations which pull in the generic targets and *not* the other way round. This might be surprising at first, but Andrey, Kay and I think this makes most sense. Here's an attempt of a longer explanation for this: First of all most of these special targets should eventually go away without replacement. They exist primarily to provide compatibility with SysV/LSB where generic facility names were a crucial requirement for ordering things properly. However, in a world with socket and bus activation this is not necessary anymore. If all services are socket and bus activatable, then all clients can just use them without the need to wait for anything explicitly. Currently existing targets of this kind are at least: nss-lookup.target, http-daemon.target, dbus.target, mail-transfer-agent.target, rpcbind.target, rtc-set.target, syslog.target. Of these dbus.target can probably be retired right now, since we only support bus activated dbus daemons. And syslog.target probably soon too, since all relevant syslog implementations have been patched by now. And rpcbind very likely too soon. Then there is network.target. This is a bit more complex case. $network in LSB headers is mostly use to synchronize services to the point where "the network is up". I generally believe that the idea that such a point in tim exists is just broken. Networks aren't static beasts anymore. They come and go. Machines move. Machines are reconfigured all the time. An application which is written in a way that it expects the network to be up from the moment it is started to the moment it exits is just broken. That's 90's style hacking, but in 2011 network software should acknowledge that things have changed and subscribe to netlink so that they follow network changes and can be started at any time. Thankfully a lot of software does that correctly now. However, we have to acknowledge that a lot of software still doesn't, for example stuff like ntpdate. For that reason we probably need to keep network.target for a while, even if it's mostly an indication of software sucking and not so much an indication of excellence on sw design. So, now let's have a close look at network.target, NetworkManager.service and network.service (i.e. the classic Fedora network init scripts. The ordering between these units is pretty clear: network.target should be AFTER the other two, and that's about it. But what about the requirement deps? The obvious choice would be to make network.target require (or want) the two services. But that would mean that any start transaction that includes network.target would also include the two services. And is this really what we want? No, clearly not I would say. network.target is supposed to be used to order the various network setup systems against the various network consuming services, but it shouldn't mean that just to enforce this ordering having apache.service in your transaction also causes you to have *all* the configured network setup implementations in it as well. i.e. if at boot NM and the old network scripts got started, and then the user stopped NM (but didn't disable it), then starting apache should definitely *not* start NM again. And hence there should *not* be a wants/requires dep from network.target on NM.service nor network.service. But what about the other direction? We definitely want network.target in the boot transaction if NM or network.service is part of it too. Because only then the network consuming services can be synchronized properly. Hence we want those two services pull in network.target, as a signal "Hey, we implement this, and when it is up, you can use it". So, here's what I am going to do now: a) Modify the Description= strings of the various target units where this applies to make clear that they exist for SysV/LSB compat only. b) Remove dbus.target c) Add a Wants+Before to syslog.socket on syslog.target. Since the socket is already enough to make logging possible this is all that is needed. d) fix the systemd code which parses LSB headers to interpret Provides like this. e) patch NM upstream and NTP in F15 to add the necessary dependencies. And Andrey, thanks a lot for pointing us to this problem and the solution! Questions? Anything we didn't think about? Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. _______________________________________________ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel