M
From: "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "\"Athletics\"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:39:12 -0600
On hard training. People seem to forget that Pirie, Zatopek and Igloi's
runners would run 100+ mile weeks of intervals. People trained "harder" in
that era than in any other. Obviously it didn't produce sub 27:00 10k's. I
seriously doubt that it's a matter of western runners not training hard
enough.
If there is a mental block my guess it would be more on the lines of, "they're on drugs so we can't beat them." To which I say, go do drugs, but that's another matter entirely.
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of edndana Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 5:22 PM To: "Athletics" Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000
Joe -
Well. ..you and I are arguing over semantics, and I don't think our argument has anything to do with whatever "problem" there is.
Five years ago, I sensed more of the "excuse" mentality from American
runners - I don't so much any more. Maybe they aren't training hard
enough - I really am not sure - but I don't think we have the same mentality
problem we used to have.
As for Geb's hard days in a row, Bruce Lehane's subsequent post would seem
to contradict it. But the world's best marathoners (including Americans)
have been doing a variation on that for at least 30 years. Derek Clayon may
have been the first to really push that particular envelope, although I
can't help wondering if Lydiard also did during his experimentation in the
1950's and din't have the same success. I don't know what kind of training
Khannouchi does, but plenty of the Africans do numerous medium to hard days
in a row.
For the 5K/10K, true Lydiard disciples did the same thing. Lydiard's hill
phase was five days per week of hills/speed and his speed phase was 4-5 days
of speed. As I'm sure you'll agree, this is nothing new. We are
unfortunately victims of the hard-easy philosophy in this country. That
sometimes works, even at the elite level, but I don't believe it is the
surest way to success.
- Ed
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Rubio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "edndana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <"Athletics" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"@mtac2.prodigy.net> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 6:43 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000
> Ed,
>
>
> You think maybe this is part of our "problem" as a distance running
> nation is the fact that we are arguing over a few miles each way whereas
> athletes in other countries are thinking 120-150 or whatever they
> actually do at whatever pace they actually do it is just plain old
> average weekly training if you want to be competitive?
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> edndana wrote:
> > I don't know, I can't classify 150 mpw, which is no less than probably
> > 80-90% of the world's elite have ever done, as moderate. 120 mpw, sure,
> > that's the very upper end of moderate for an elite male, but what Geb
does
> > does not look like that much less than the top guys have been doing for
30
> > years. Look at the Olympic 5/10/Mar medalists and they have mostly been
> > doing 120-160 since at least 1972, so we can't call Geb moderate unless
we
> > compare him to guys who were in the small minority.
> >
> > I doubt the median of the top 10 guys in the 5K/10K/Mar has changed all
that
> > much over the past 30 years, and we can't call that moderate. Knowing
to
> > run 140-160 instead of 200 is old news, and was old news even back when
> > Bowerman made his observation in the early 1970's.
> >
> > - Ed Parrot
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Rubio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "edndana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 5:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000
> >
> >
> >
> >>Ed,
> >>
> >>"High" mileage by my definition are what a guy like Scobey did in the
> >>early 70's in response to Bedford. 210 a week with a hard track workout
> >>each day at lunch. 12 in the AM, 6 at lunch with interval work, 12
> >>before dinner every day except Sunday when it was 30 as hard as he could
> >>make it for a month straight. THAT's high mileage and high intensity.
> >>I'm pretty sure Bill set an AR a few weeks after completing that month.
> >> In my mind, 60-100 a week less than this volume would classify as
> >>moderate.
> >>
> >>Joe
> >>
> >>edndana wrote:
> >>
> >>>I tend to think that Khalid Khannouchi and Deena Drossin would have
> >>>something to say about who the 2 best distance runners in Norh America
> >>
> > are
> >
> >>>if you include marathoners as distance runners. I'm not so sure Regina
> >>>couldn't still break 14:59, either.
> >>>
> >>>As for the moderate volume at faster paces, it's certainly not true of
> >>>today's world class marathoners or cross country runners. And if the
> >>>training schedule for Geb below is accurate, he's doing somewhere
> >>
> > between
> >
> >>>120 and 150 mpw, not exactly "moderate" mileage by most standards. Many
> >>
> > of
> >
> >>>today's runners are actually doing as much or more mileage and doing it
> >>>faster.
> >>>
> >>>- Ed Parrot
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 2:01 PM
> >>>Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Maybe the Americans(and Can men) should take a page out of the books
of
> >>>
> >>>the 2
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>best distance runners in North America right now-Emilie Mondor and
> >>>
> >>>Courtney
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Babcock. Mondor broke a 15 year old national record today and Babcock
> >>>
> >>>missed by
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>.18.
> >>>>
> >>>>Joe Rubio wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>John,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>From his 5k, 10k and marathon times I'd guess he's running at 5:20
> >>>>
> > pace
> >
> >>>>>for an easier recovery run, 5:00-5:20 for your everyday - garden
> >>>>
> > variety
> >
> >>>>>long run, maybe even dropping it down to 4:48 pace near the end.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Something I read from Dellinger a number of years back sticks out in
my
> >>>>>mind. Now I'm paraphrasing here using a badly damaged brain this AM
of
> >>>>>too much coffee but I believe he said something to the effect that
the
> >>>>>next generation of dominant distance runner will not focus on the
> >>>>
> > weekly
> >
> >>>>>mileage so much as they will be running a moderate volume of weekly
> >>>>>mileage at much faster paces all around. In his estimation, almost
> >>>>>everything such as long runs and "recovery" days would be done at
> >>>>
> > approx
> >
> >>>>>5 minute pace, while still maintaining an appropriate (for them)
volume
> >>>>>of work at 1500, 5k and 10k paces. I can dig up the actual quote
from
> >>>>>his book in the early 80's called "Training for Competitive Distance
> >>>>>Runners" or something close, published by Runner's World Press in
1984
> >>>>
> >>>(?).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Looks like Bill saw the writing on the wall back 20 years ago. Seems
> >>>>>similar to the wall Coe saw in the early 80's as well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Joe
> >>>>>
> >>>>>John Schiefer wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>The real question is how does Geb define "easy" on his
> >>>>>>training runs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I'm sure easy for Geb is about 5:45 pace.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Schiefer
> >>>>>>--- malmo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Yup Mike, the Letsrun mentality has infected you.
> >>>>>>>Find one
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>From: Michael Contopoulos
> >>>>>>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>>>>Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:02 PM
> >>>>>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> >>>>>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>>>>Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Malmo, on Letsrun you noted that what Geb does is
> >>>>>>>pretty standard
> >>>>>>>training.
> >>>>>>>I disagree. The guy does 4 days of workouts in a
> >>>>>>>row (not including the
> >>>>>>>in
> >>>>>>>betwen easy hour runs) ON TOP of his 3 hour long run
> >>>>>>>followed by a 1
> >>>>>>>hour
> >>>>>>>run.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>hard 15-30km run
> >>>>>>>1 hour easy
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>sprint workout
> >>>>>>>1 hour easy
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>hills
> >>>>>>>1 hours easy
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>3x1200 to 8x2000
> >>>>>>>w hour easy
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>You tell me that Meb, Pepper, Abdi, Browne, Johnson
> >>>>>>>are doing 4 workouts
> >>>>>>>in
> >>>>>>>consecutive days (with a "sprint" session in
> >>>>>>>there... which of those
> >>>>>>>guys
> >>>>>>>does a "sprint" session?)...on top of a 3 hour run
> >>>>>>>followed by a one
> >>>>>>>hour
> >>>>>>>run once a week... well... round of drinks is on me.
> >>>>>>>geb trains much
> >>>>>>>harder
> >>>>>>>than our guys. And he's supremely confident. And
> >>>>>>>he's supremely
> >>>>>>>talented.
> >>>>>>>That's pretty darn near impossible to beat.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>From: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>>>>>Reply-To: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>>>>>To: "'edndana'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000
> >>>>>>>>Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:18:03 -0400
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I'm basing my wager on this crowd:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>My guess is that Culpepper is the only one who
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>could run sub-25, with
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Bickford and Kennedy close.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>27:13.98 ..... Meb Keflezighi (Nik) 01
> >>>>>>>>27:20.56 ......... Mark Nenow (Pum) 86
> >>>>>>>>27:25.61 ..... Alberto Salazar (AW) 82
> >>>>>>>>27:29.16 ...... Craig Virgin (FRRT) 80
> >>>>>>>>27:31.34 ...... Todd Williams (adi) 95
> >>>>>>>>27:33.93 ..... Alan Culpepper (adi) 01
> >>>>>>>>27:37.17 .... Bruce Bickford (NBal) 85
> >>>>>>>>27:38.37 ........ Bob Kennedy (Nik) 99
> >>>>>>>>27:41.05 ........ Ed Eyestone (BYU) 85
> >>>>>>>>27:42.83 .... Abdi Abdirahman (Nik) 02
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>>>>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Of edndana
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 3:43 PM
> >>>>>>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Malmo -
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I can't tell if you agree or disagree with me
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>from your comment.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I may be wrong, as I am largely basing my
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>observations on the people I
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>ran against in high school and college. Most of
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>the people that knew
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>around my ability (9:50 2-mile in HS, 32:00 10K
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>after college) could do
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>between 24.5 and 25.5 seconds. I've done 25.1 in a
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>race and I am not
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>particularly fast (My best 100m is 12.5 wind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>aided).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>So, I can only conclude that guys who are 3-5
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>minutes faster than me
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>at 10K could beat me by a few tenths for the 200m.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Most of these guys
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>were a lot faster than me in high school as well.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>It just doesn't seem
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>reasomable that the group of guys running 9:00 in
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>high school is not
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>any faster over 200m than the group of guys running
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>9:45 - as a group.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Now maybe the distance runners slow down over 200m
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>between high school
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>and their mid-20's - I certainly didn't, but I also
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>wasn't doing 100+
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>miles per week of distance training like I should
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>have been.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>- Ed Parrot
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>From: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>>>>>To: "'edndana'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 3:10 PM
> >>>>>>>>Subject: RE: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>I'd be a big seller on that claim.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>malmoo
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>>>>>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Behalf Of edndana
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 1:01 PM
> >>>>>>>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: t-and-f: 12:57 last 5000
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>Perhaps our 10k guys (and 5k guys) go about
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>training too much like
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>they would for a marathon and don't focus
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>enough on speed. Geb
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>constantly
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>talks
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>about improving his speed. How many of our
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>10k guys can run 24.5
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>flat
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>out let alone at the end of a 10k?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Jeez, I'm sure at least 8 of our top 10 10K guys
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>could run 24.5 all
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>out, if not all of them. They may never
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>actually have done so, but
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>I bet nearly all of them could.
> >>>>>>>>>- Ed Parrot
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>_________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with
> >>>>>>>advanced parental
> >>>>>>>controls.
> >>>>>>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>__________________________________
> >>>>>>Do you Yahoo!?
> >>>>>>Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> >>>>>>http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>Regards,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Martin
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A.,
> >>>>Millard Financial Consulting Inc.
> >>>>P.O. Box 367
> >>>>96 Nelson Street
> >>>>Brantford, Ontario
> >>>>N3T 5N3
> >>>>Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231
> >>>>Telephone: (519) 759-3511
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>IMPORTANT NOTICE:
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> > .
> >
>
>
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