Richard's arguments seem spot on. I hadn't thought it through that way, and his viewpoint is coming from two regimes.
Richard wrote: Please, please, please don't fall into the trap of trying to optimise for data consumers when you're not a data consumer. OSM has far too much of this and it's resulted in a lot of nonsense tags over the years. Since you'd never reach 100% coverage for paved=, the data consumer would need to continue to parse the surface= tag. So the main effect would be to make life _harder_ for data consumers, who would now have to check not just three surface-type tags (surface=, tracktype=, smoothness=) but four. Or in other words: +1 On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 3:54 PM, <p...@trigpoint.me.uk> wrote: > Toll? I assume that means the same in US English as in UK English? > > You really have to pay to use cycleways? How is the toll collected and > enforced? > > Phil (trigpoint ) > > On Sun Sep 21 2014 23:36:04 GMT+0100 (BST), Paul Johnson wrote: > > Along with this, I really hope renderers start computing surface=* and > > toll=* values for ALL ways. I say this since "surface=asphalt, > > highway=cyclway" is an exceptionally rare combination in the midwestern > US, > > but "highway=cycleway, surface=gravel, toll=yes" is not. > > > > On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 2:29 AM, Pee Wee <piewi...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > -1 > > > > > > A renderer/router is perfectly capable of deciding what he thinks is > > > paved/unpaved. He can decide whether he calls gravel / fine_gravel > paved or > > > unpaved. Do not leave the decision paved/unpaved up to the mapper. Map > > > what you see. As you may have guessed I prefer surface=asphalt over > > > surface=paved since the last one could mean that it is gravel. > > > > > > Cheers > > > PeeWee32 > > > > > > 2014-09-21 2:49 GMT+02:00 David Bannon <dban...@internode.on.net>: > > > > > >> > > >> yes, agree strongly. Surface= is a good tag, provides important info > but > > >> it is far too fine grained. Someone setting up a route cannot be > > >> expected to sift through all the possible values. > > >> > > >> Similarly, we may well have a chance to get the renderers to respect a > > >> clear, on/off tag like the proposed and show it on the maps too. > > >> > > >> I see no problem with both tags being used. > > >> > > >> I think sometimes we put too much detail in the database and risk > making > > >> the data unusable because of that. Mention making the data usable, we > > >> see charges of "tagging for the renderer". But this is important, I > have > > >> detailed life threatening issues resulting from unclear maps. This > > >> proposal will provide valuable, dare I say "usable" info for > consumers ! > > >> > > >> David > > >> > > >> On Sat, 2014-09-20 at 23:42 +0200, Tomasz Kaźmierczak wrote: > > >> > Hello all, > > >> > > > >> > I've posted the below message on the forum, and have been directed > > >> > from there to this mailing list, thus re-posting it. > > >> > > > >> > Idea > > >> > > > >> > I would like to suggest making the paved key for highways (and > > >> > probably other types of elements) official. Taginfo for paved: > > >> > http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/paved#values > > >> > > > >> > The above shows that the key is already being used, but the Wiki > > >> > doesn't describe this key, instead redirecting Key:paved to the > > >> > article about Key:surface. > > >> > > > >> > Rationale > > >> > > > >> > Currently, the surface key is being used as a way of saying that a > > >> > given highway is paved or unpaved, but often the value for the > surface > > >> > key is not a generic paved or unpaved, but a specific surface type > is > > >> > given.This is of course very useful for describing the particular > > >> > surface type a given highway has. However, in some cases, a simple > > >> > information on just whether a highway is paved or not, would be very > > >> > useful. One such case would be navigation software – if a user > chooses > > >> > to avoid unpaved roads, the software can check the value of the > > >> > surface key, but in practice most (all?) of the navigation software > > >> > only checks for a subset of all the possible values the surface key > > >> > can have. This leads to incorrect (in terms of what the user > expects) > > >> > navigation when, for example, the surface is set to some value that > > >> > describes an unpaved road, not recognized by the navigation > software – > > >> > if the software assumes that all highways are paved, unless > explicitly > > >> > stated otherwise (by recognized values of known keys), then, in > > >> > consequence, it assumes that the road in question is paved. > > >> > > > >> > If the paved key was widely used, then the navigation software would > > >> > have a simple and clear way of checking whether a given road is > paved > > >> > or not. The default value of the paved key for highways could be > yes, > > >> > so that it would be consistent with the assumption that highways in > > >> > general are paved. > > >> > > > >> > I don't mean that we should stop using the paved and unpaved values > > >> > for the surface key – I'm sure those generic values are useful in > some > > >> > cases. However, using the paved key would be also very useful. Also, > > >> > the surface=paved could also implicate paved=yes and similarly > > >> > surface=unpaved could implicate paved=no, so that duplication of the > > >> > information could be avoided when the generic paved and unpaved > values > > >> > are set for the surface key. > > >> > > > >> > I believe that adding an article for the paved key to the Wiki would > > >> > encourage people to use this tag, and navigation software makers to > > >> > implement support for it in their applications. > > >> > > > >> > What do you think about that? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Regards, > > >> > > > >> > Tomek > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Tagging mailing list > > >> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Tagging mailing list > > >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Verbeter de wereld. Word mapper voor Openstreetmap > > > <http://www.openstreetmap.org>. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Tagging mailing list > > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > > > > > > > > -- > Sent from my Jolla > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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