Hi Daniel,
Actually, the part between Quebec City and Beaupré of Route 138 should
still be tagged as a trunk. Beaupré is not a large population centre,
but the layout of the road is almost that of a motorway. Except that
there are traffic lights instead of interchanges.
Regards,
Frank
On 25-7-2015 19:10, Daniel Begin wrote:
I think we are evolving to a consensus that makes sense.
I have received some examples that are quite right in QC context. For
those who know the area, Route 175 up to Saguenay is obviously a “type
1” trunk road while Route 138 northeast from Quebec City isn't.
However, I hope everyone concerned will give their “two cents” because
the context in Manitoba or in Yukon may be (is) quite different, and I
do not want an "Eastern centric solution" on the subject :-)
Best regards,
DanielI
*From:*Daniel Begin [mailto:jfd...@hotmail.com]
*Sent:* July-24-15 10:09
*To:* 'Adam Martin'; 'Tristan Anderson'
*Cc:* talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
*Subject:* Re: [Talk-ca] Highway recoding
“… [TCH] is automatically a trunk route given that it is, at its most
basic point, the central connection between major settlements …”
Interesting… it is type 2 definition proposed by Tristan but without
the concept of distance. IMHO, It highlights the fact that, depending
on how you define central connection, major settlements, or distant
population centres, you may ends up with the Britain situation – or
even worst.
Combining two very different objectives (types 1 and 2) in one
definition leads to confusion. What about a rationale revolving around
Type 1 definition but considering the TCH as a “special case” as
suggested by Martin?
-OSM road classes mostly aim toward Type 1 definition, so be it for
trunks;
-Since TCH could be consider as the only highway connecting most major
population centres across the country, we could agree to tag it
whether motorway or trunk depending on the infrastructure. There
should then be no more confusion with this only one exception.
However, we could also manage all type 2 definitions, such as the ones
described in document (a) with relation:route (b) but it is a bit more
complex and less visual when looking at Mapnik.
Other thoughts, comments?
Daniel
a) http://www.comt.ca/english/NHS-report-english.pdf
b) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route#Road_routes
*From:*Adam Martin [mailto:s.adam.mar...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* July-24-15 07:08
*To:* Tristan Anderson
*Cc:* Daniel Begin; Stewart C. Russell; talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
<mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org>
*Subject:* Re: [Talk-ca] Highway recoding
Reviewing the types that you suggest here, the result seems
reasonable. Major Canadian Highways are generally a blend of the two,
I find. Type 1 trunks rely on restricted access and the main highways
in cities are generally limited in this manner. Likewise, these
restrictions lift, in a sense, outside the city where they switch to
connecting major settlements together (Type 2).
That said, I think that most would agree that the TransCanada Highway
is automatically a trunk route given that it is, at it's most basic
point, the central connection between major settlements, especially
across provincial borders. I assume that the routes that leave the TCH
to go to other major settlements would need to be at the same class as
the TCH, if they are multi-lane highways used to connect settlements.
Or are we to designate them down a classification and leave Trunk for
the TCH alone?
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 6:48 PM, Tristan Anderson
<andersontris...@hotmail.com <mailto:andersontris...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
So it seems like we're coming to some agreement. The current Canadian
definition based on that 2005 document should be replaced with
something else that is consistent with the rest of the world. Once we
find this new definition, the appropriate wiki pages should be updated.
I took a look around the world and finally saw some consistency in how
trunk tags are used. Stewart's guidelines are basically correct, but
I think I can hammer out a more specific description. There are two
types of roads with are both usually tagged highway=trunk:
(1) Limited access highways. This is a physical description for a
road that has some of the characteristics of a motorway. They are
often dual carriageways of fairly high speed.
(2) Highways connecting distant population centres. This is a
functional description for a road where used by cars and heavy trucks
travelling long distances or between major cities. Although usually
two lanes, in more remote areas these roads may have very light
traffic, be unpaved, or be slow.
In some parts of the world, like Germany, France and the eastern
United States, all trunk roads are type (1) because long-distance
travel is generally done on their dense networks of motorways.
Conversely, in large swathes of Australia and Canada, as well as in
much of the developing world, all trunk roads are type (2) because
type (1) doesn't exist.
The only country I noticed that doesn't follow the above scheme is
Britain (actually just England and Wales), ironically the birthplace
of the trunk. The designation there is used quite liberally, including
even short roads connecting small towns and quite a few of of London's
city streets. Just look at England at zoom level 5 and observe how
unusually green it is.
I suggest using the "international" model, with types (1) and (2)
above being tagged as trunks in Canada. This won't change much as it
largely coincides with how roads are already tagged. The wiki pages
can be updated accordingly then we can look at specific roads in BC
and Québec!
Any objections?
> From: jfd...@hotmail.com <mailto:jfd...@hotmail.com>
> To: scr...@gmail.com <mailto:scr...@gmail.com>;
talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org>
> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 10:08:44 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Highway recoding
>
> Thank Russel,
> Your description is pretty close of the one I had in mind (about
trunks) before I found the Canadian definition was referring to the
mentioned document.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Daniel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stewart C. Russell [mailto:scr...@gmail.com
<mailto:scr...@gmail.com>]
> Sent: July-23-15 08:44
> To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Highway recoding
>
> The definition of ‘trunk’ is a difficult one, if based on the UK
understanding. Like its unwritten constitution, trunk roads in the UK
are more on a "know it when I see it" basis.
>
> Pretty much the only definitions I can think of that would be
generally applicable are:
>
> * a trunk road goes from one city/town to another.
>
> * no parking at the side of the road.
>
> * something above the urban speed limit applies (though there are
often nasty brief exceptions, like a roughly 200m stretch of 30 mph
that used to adorn the A80, dammit).
>
> A trunk road isn't always dual carriageway. It can have traffic
lights, roundabouts or (rare, in the UK) stop signs. Depending on its
age, it may bypass towns and villages. Older trunk roads may also have
all the usual roads entering it, while newer ones are likely to have
on-ramps.
>
> In summary, the UK definition is so riddled with unwritten
exceptions that trying to apply it rigorously in even one province in
Canada will be frustrating. And no matter what you do, you'll always
get some rogue user that comes along and adds their own tagging. It's
a sair fecht …
>
> cheers,
> Stewart
>
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