Jim -- after 24 years in the field, I'd suggest that probably you are eligible to be granted a degree based on life experience!! :)
I was certainly not saying that a degree makes any sort of difference in competency (it doesn't!), but only that to be considered a "profession" for licensing purposes, a degree (or life experience constituting equivalence of a 4-yr degree!) would be most likely required. Probably I would run into issues with licensing myself as my degree was in Literature & Linguistics (1985) ...and I used an old manual typewriter to do my research papers! LOL. --Kristina > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > Guess 24 years experience programming in all kinds of environments with > 15 or so languages does not constitute a profession then based on your > position that it requires a degree. I have no degree. I have very > little formal training. > > The problem in today's world is that too much emphasis is put on a > degree, and not enough emphasis is put on experience. I'm not trying to > denigrate degrees, I wish I had one ( especially considering the heavy > emphasis ). But, when I entered the programming fray, degrees were not > emphasized. I suspect that the dearth in competent coders at the time > was a heavy influence. > > I very much like the lawyer example considering Frank Abagnale Jr. > Frank was made famous by Leonardo Dicaprio's portrayal in "Catch Me if > You Can". While the movie is an exaggeration of the reality of the > story, according to Frank, he did pass the bar exam without any formal > education. Now Frank may be an exceptional intellect, but I think it > does draw out that it is fully possible for individuals to rise to the > industry standard without a formal education. > > I consider myself a professional in a profession even without the > degree. In fact, I consider myself a craftsman rather than an engineer > because I take pride in everything I do and apply ingenuity and > creativity rather than rely on a canned set of solutions. > > Once again, I do not disregard formalized education, it forms a very > good foundation on which to build a profession. But to assume that no > formalized education denotes a non-professional elevates formalized > education to the be-all and end-all for the profession. If that were > the case, then, students coming out of college should be fully prepared > to BE what they trained to be. I can't tell you how many interviews I > have conducted with graduates who obviously lacked the skills to do the > job. Ability should be the bellwether, not how that ability came to be. > > The real discussion is not on what qualifies one for the profession, but > rather, how do we accurately measure ability. I don't have the answer > to that question. And, I think that were an answer to that question > readily available, there would be no need for this discussion. Maybe > part of the licensing process should borrow from the medical community > and require a period of "residency". > > Kristina Anderson wrote: > > For all intents and purposes, a software engineer/application developer > > must have a bachelor's degree of some sort, and certainly after 10 > > years of doing this, I consider that it takes considerable training and > > specialized study to be reasonably good. > > > > My question to you Urb: Would you consider me, a person with a non- CS > > university degree (B.A.), and 10 years of actual paid experience, to > > be "self taught" or merely "non traditionally formally educated"...? > > It's true that the skills to be a good programmer were learned "in the > > field" and not in a classroom but isn't that true of everyone? And to > > say "self taught" is to really underestimate the contributions of very > > brilliant people I have learned from over the years including one Dr. > > Jerry A. who posts to this list, and many others. > > > > I would sure welcome a NYS professional license for software developers > > and want to know would anyone else want to get active on that? It > > could require a certain number of years of actual paid experience and a > > test and whatever else...I'm 100% in favor of this if it helps us get > > more respect. As Urb pointed out, other types of engineers do have > > licensing. > > > > (My previous polemic having been somewhat out of place because we were > > talking about a "webmaster test" -- but it's one thing if you are > > looking for someone who can hand code a little HTML...that's not > > necessarily a "profession" -- but if you are looking for someone who > > can administer your LAMP environment AND design & develop your LAMP > > applications then you are looking for someone with a sh*tload of > > experience and broad based experience at that...you are looking for a > > LAMP engineer not a "webmaster". Calling this person a "webmaster" > > with all those skills is another way of keeping respect, and pay > > scales, down.) > > > > My point having been that (no offense to the lawyers out there) it > > takes WAY MORE BRAINS to design & develop working code than it does to > > write a divorce complaint or a commercial lease -- which is what most > > lawyers do -- most of them are not litigation experts who deal with > > arcane Supreme Court decisions and get on Court TV -- and by the same > > token most software developers are not dealing with the highest, most > > arcane levels of software (whatever that might be deemed to be). > > > > But it is a profession requiring a 4 year degree (de facto) and > > CONSIDERABLE training and specialized education...!! > > > > > >>>> By definition, programming and website design is not a > >>>> profession. > >>>> > >>> Really? What specifically is that definition? > >>> > >> profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, > >> that requires considerable training > >> and specialized study" > >> > >> Houghton Mifflin Dictionary. > >> > >> Even an engineer must have a professional engineering (PE) > >> designation to perform certain types of design. > >> I don't have a problem with a self taught programmers, I've known > >> some great ones, however, a field having > >> a large number of practitioners without formal training is a trade > >> not a profession. A profession is also > >> self-regulated. > >> > >> It's another thread but, should there be certification available for > >> programmers and web designers? If we > >> ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I was > >> in the stock brokerage business when > >> the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into > >> being. It was extraordinarily difficult > >> and it took almost two years after the announcement before the first > >> designation were awarded. It required > >> two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the > >> industry and these days you will not get > >> a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same thing > >> happened with Chartered Financial > >> Planner (CFP). > >> > >> I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the subject > >> when we have drifted into a new > >> area? > >> > >> > >> Urb > >> > >> Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President > >> E-Government.com > >> 609-294-0320 800-204-9545 > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your expectations. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List > >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > >> > >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > >> http://www.nyphpcon.com > >> > >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP > >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > >> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online http://www.nyphpcon.com Show Your Participation in New York PHP http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
